| Author |
Message |
|
Posted: Tue, 07 Sep 2004, 3:52pm Post subject: How do you play this hand? |
|
|
Full House
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 629
WPP: 149
|
|
CARDSON
What do you put him on (relatively new to table so no read)
GAME #584805852 - $3/$6 TEXAS HOLD'EM - 2004/09/07-16:10:43 (CST)
Table "Mabua" (real money) -- Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: These men ($135.00 in chips)
Seat 2: tadams ($220.00 in chips)
Seat 3: Jackalmaniac ($125.50 in chips)
Seat 4: scgolfer ($263.00 in chips)
Seat 5: conehead1 ($79.00 in chips)
Seat 6: jc060896 ($54.00 in chips)
Seat 7: DexterB ($84.00 in chips)
Seat 8: Z Red Barron ($35.00 in chips)
Seat 9: shamani ($340.00 in chips)
Seat 10: RoscoKid ($141.00 in chips)
jc060896: Post Small Blind ($1)
DexterB : Post Big Blind ($3)
Dealing...
Dealt to scgolfer [ Tc ]
Dealt to scgolfer [ Ts ]
Z Red Barron: Call ($3)
shamani : Fold
RoscoKid: Fold
These men: Call ($3)
tadams : Fold
Jackalmaniac: Fold
scgolfer: Raise ($6)
conehead1: Fold
jc060896: Raise ($8)
DexterB : Call ($6)
Z Red Barron: Call ($6)
These men: Fold
scgolfer: Call ($3)
*** FLOP *** : [ 6c 5c Th ]
jc060896: Bet ($3)
DexterB : Fold
Z Red Barron: Call ($3)
scgolfer: Raise ($6)
jc060896: Raise ($6)
Z Red Barron: Call ($6)
scgolfer: Raise ($6)
jc060896: Call ($3)
Z Red Barron: Call ($3)
Im putting him(jc) on AA KK QQ JJ or maybe A10 pocket 6's or 5's or flush draw right?
*** TURN *** : [ 6c 5c Th ] [ 8h ]
jc060896: Bet ($6)
Z Red Barron: Call ($6)
scgolfer: Raise ($12)
jc060896: Call ($6)
Z Red Barron: Call ($6)
OK now he has to have one of those right?
*** RIVER *** : [ 6c 5c Th 8h ] [ 7h ]
jc060896: Bet ($6)
Z Red Barron: Call All-in ($2)
scgolfer: Raise ($12)
jc060896: Raise ($12)
scgolfer: Raise ($12)
jc060896: Call All-in ($3) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue, 07 Sep 2004, 4:13pm Post subject: |
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 1887
WPP: 103
Location: Kansas City
|
|
I might be inclined to call the river bet, not raise. You even sounded sure. "SOmeone has to have this, right? So why are you re-raising? But how likely is it that one of these players held onto 2  s or a 9 for that long? But as sure as I say that, someone will flip over a 93o.
I'll guess you are up against a tripped pair (obviously lower) and a straight. (99? x9  s ? or some medium suited connector) But that is jsut a guess, nothing more. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue, 07 Sep 2004, 4:17pm Post subject: |
|
|
Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17621
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
|
|
Wow, that river sucks. Given that everyone is so close to all-in by the river, I play it the same. Players get silly when their chips run low.
With less than 10BB in front of him, I wouldn't be so certain jc060896 is on AA/KK/QQ. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue, 07 Sep 2004, 4:18pm Post subject: |
|
|
Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17621
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
|
|
| Humphrind wrote: | | I might be inclined to call the river bet, not raise. You even sounded sure. "SOmeone has to have this, right? So why are you re-raising? But how likely is it that one of these players held onto 2 s or a 9 for that long? But as sure as I say that, someone will flip over a 93o. |
WEAK!
Z Red Barron is out of the picture, so our only concern here is if we have jc060896 beat more than 50% of the time. Up until his 3-bet, I'd have to say yes. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue, 07 Sep 2004, 4:55pm Post subject: |
|
|
Full House
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 629
WPP: 149
|
|
Pot: $114 | Side pot 1: $38 | Rake: $3
Board: [ 6c 5c Th 8h 7h ]
These men lost $3 (folded)
tadams didn't bet (folded)
Jackalmaniac didn't bet (folded)
scgolfer bet $57, collected $3, net -$54 (showed hand) [ Tc Ts ] (three of a kind, tens)
conehead1 didn't bet (folded)
jc060896 bet $54, collected $152, net +$98 (showed hand) [ 9s 9d ] (a straight, six to ten)
DexterB lost $9 (folded)
Z Red Barron lost $35 (showed hand) [ Qd Td ] (a pair of tens)
shamani didn't bet (folded)
RoscoKid didn't bet (folded)
-----------------------------------------------------
The fricken guy catches runner runner(gutshot) to win. Nice huh! I thought the same thing Fnord, with so few chips he could have anything from high pocket to flopped two pair, and was going to win or quit. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue, 07 Sep 2004, 6:12pm Post subject: |
|
|
Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17621
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
|
|
I had a feeling a bad beat story was comming...
Wow, I like his flop cap.
You just can't put a guy like this on a hand, ever. Value bet strong hands, showdown medium strength hands and accept that weird shit like this will go down every now and then.
BTW: It would be nice to see more interesting decision hand posts and fewer bad beat posts. Hands like this are almost counter-productive to learning how to play maximum +EV poker. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue, 07 Sep 2004, 7:06pm Post subject: |
|
|
Full House
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 629
WPP: 149
|
|
| I agree Fnord, but if have noticed I havent been doing it anymore(posting bad beats) But I wanted to know If I was too aggressive on this or actuall ok? And whether others would do it differently. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue, 07 Sep 2004, 8:50pm Post subject: |
|
|
Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17621
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
|
|
| scgolfer wrote: | | But I wanted to know If I was too aggressive on this or actuall ok? And whether others would do it differently. |
Rest assured, playing top set like a maniac on tilt after doing a line of cocaine is not a leak. Playing it any slower most certainly is cause for concern. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed, 08 Sep 2004, 1:23am Post subject: |
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Apr 2004
Posts: 1522
WPP: 82
Location: England UK
|
|
I'd slow down on the river (Can't bring myself to raise with a 3 flush and a straight on the board), but the rest of the hand you played just fine.
Harsh river card esp in a pot this size |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed, 08 Sep 2004, 10:59am Post subject: |
|
|
Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17621
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
|
|
One other thought...
"Could I have won more on this hand?" and "Could I have lost less on this hand?" are equaly valid questions. Given the nature of poker where you can "play it right and have it go all wrong" it's natural to want to ask the later question. Yet, I see the better players more often asking the first question. Missed value bets are a leak too... |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed, 08 Sep 2004, 11:59am Post subject: |
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 1887
WPP: 103
Location: Kansas City
|
|
| Fnord wrote: | | Missed value bets are a leak too... |
This is very true and I won't argue with you for a second on this.
But on this board, with 4 to a straight and 3 to a flush on the board, can you really see raising after the river "value"? I say there are too many hands that can beat me, and I call. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed, 08 Sep 2004, 12:23pm Post subject: |
|
|
Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17621
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
|
|
| Humphrind wrote: |
But on this board, with 4 to a straight and 3 to a flush on the board, can you really see raising after the river "value"? I say there are too many hands that can beat me, and I call. |
Because you only care about one hand (the other guy is already all-in), and he's been representing a hand you clearly have beat all the way. Betting for value means you're usually good, not 100%. This is a very freakish hand.
IMHO, knowing when to bet/raise non-nutish hands on the river is one of the differences between good and great players. |
Last edited by Fnord on Wed, 08 Sep 2004, 12:25pm; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed, 08 Sep 2004, 12:23pm Post subject: |
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Apr 2004
Posts: 1522
WPP: 82
Location: England UK
|
|
| Betting isn't a problem but I don't think I would have the best hand enough of the time to warrant capping this board when someone has already 3-bet. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed, 08 Sep 2004, 12:27pm Post subject: |
|
|
Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17621
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
|
|
| Toasty wrote: | | Betting isn't a problem but I don't think I would have the best hand enough of the time to warrant capping this board when someone has already 3-bet. |
The only reason I would consider it is that he's nearly all-in, so it's only $3 more and his 3-bet standards are probably significantly lower. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed, 08 Sep 2004, 12:52pm Post subject: |
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 1887
WPP: 103
Location: Kansas City
|
|
| Fnord wrote: | | Because you only care about one hand (the other guy is already all-in), and he's been representing a hand you clearly have beat all the way. Betting for value means you're usually good, not 100%. This is a very freakish hand. |
OK, first I have to say that I am gathering information to get better at limit. So thank you for all the insight you have given, and will give to me by talking about this hand. Here's another arguement I have, but this is all just to get a better understanding of how to play this and why we are raising / calling at certain points.
But here's where I'm still needing clarification. We are still worried about Red Baron (the all-in guy) because he didn't go all in until the river. If we call, it's only $8 in the side pot. The only way we don't worry about him is if we cap the river, like we did. Even then we still have most of the money in the main pot, so we kinda have to worry about him a little bit. But also, the only reason we'd cap the river is if we had the nuts or near nuts, and in this case, we are still pretty vulnerable.
The guy we cap the river with, jc, will only cap it if he has us beat. Again, because of the board. He has been representing a strong hand, but for him to play it strong at the river tells us we may be beat. I think the only wrong move here would be to fold. And to call or re-raise is all just opinions. So why is re-raising is better than calling? I think jc played his 9s ok. The board only had 1 overcard and he was just being aggresive. It's tough to put him on pocket 9s, but in hindsight, I can justify all of his moves.
| Fnord wrote: | | IMHO, knowing when to bet/raise non-nutish hands on the river is one of the differences between good and great players. |
I agree half-heartedly. If you are going to raise / cap non-nuttish hands, you need to be sure you have the other person beat at least. What you lack with cards you need to make up for with your read on the other person. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed, 08 Sep 2004, 1:03pm Post subject: |
|
|
Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17621
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
|
|
| Humphrind wrote: |
The guy we cap the river with, jc, will only cap it if he has us beat.
|
Bad assumption. He's on a short buy-in and nearly all-in. He's probably inclined to throw in his chips with any pretty good hand. I see it all the time. Previous hands would probably help.
| Humphrind wrote: |
Again, because of the board. He has been representing a strong hand, but for him to play it strong at the river tells us we may be beat. I think the only wrong move here would be to fold. And to call or re-raise is all just opinions. So why is re-raising is better than calling? |
Because he's been (a fishy player?) representing a made hand all the way when we had the best possible made hand on the flop. Up until his 3-bet I don't see any reason to think he has us beat more than 30%ish of the time. Fearing the backdoor flush with that action is silly, leaving us to consider the odds he has a 4 or 9.
| Humphrind wrote: | | If you are going to raise / cap non-nuttish hands, you need to be sure you have the other person beat at least. What you lack with cards you need to make up for with your read on the other person. |
Sure is a long way away from profitable. I don't need to be sure, he just needs to call/re-raise with a worse hand often enough for it to be profitable. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed, 08 Sep 2004, 1:31pm Post subject: |
|
|
Full House
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 1064
WPP: 108
Location: San Francisco
|
|
| I would have played it the same way. I just didn't see any way that one of them could have had a 9 or 2 hearts. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed, 08 Sep 2004, 2:00pm Post subject: |
|
|
Flush
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 313
WPP: 124
|
|
I guess my biggest issue here is that you have 2-loons betting and calling into you with weak hands. If they are liable to make these weak plays they are equally as liable to hold any 2-cards to the river. Now from the betting they obviously got something that doesnt suck real bad.
(1) Preflop betting. Ok maybe they got pairs, 2-cards anything above a ten, small connected suitors, big connected suitors. Most likely they should have big cards or big pairs. But you see lots of crap betting on the preflop from just about anyone whos loose/aggressive. I cant conclude that everyone Im playing against are betting the 'right' cards.
(2) Flop betting. OK Jc leads out again. Most likely trips, or high pair. Less likely suited club connectors (maybe 10/9, 10/8, 10/7), and med pairs. Since he has 9/9, it seems hes hoping you have 2-overcards (AK) or lower pairs, and wants to take everyone out of the pot. Since you raise and re-raise, the opps should have a clue and either drop or at least check the turn.
(3) Turn betting. Jc leads out again. Ok now the guy is an official nut. Z Red is also a nut going this far. Maybe HtoH either one might have a case for bluff potential, but betting this way with 2 people just loses money fast. In the back of my head I got to think maybe a straight draw or made straight. Jc is beat in his mind since you capped him on the flop and he didnt re-raise you on the turn. I guess they have so much money invested so far they will play to the bitter end. By all rights you should feel confident they are both beat and cap the pot.
(4) River betting. Ok bad card to have turn-up. 44s are not likely... But based on these opps bad playing (already commited to the pot by the flop betting with losing hands), I dont know how you can feel confident your hand is the best at this point. You have 100% confidence on the turn but not on the river. What can beat you (assuming opps sucks and got drawn in by the flop).
-AK/AQ/AJ(hearts): I wouldnt put it passed them on them preflop or flop betting. They see a 4rth heart on the turn.... I mean if they can stay in with Q10, then AK(hearts) is ok too.
-Any heart with a 6 or 5
-7/9(clubs)
Since these opps are loony, I would be more inclined to call (3-way not HtoH) then to re-raise. With any random mutil-way hand and simliar 5-cards on the board, you cant be confident your hands the best. Obvious with skilled players out there, you wouldnt be reaching the river. However the loose/aggressive/passive players, when you get to the river and theres alot of cards that can beat you, i think its dubious play to re-raise confidently (as though you have the winning hand) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed, 08 Sep 2004, 2:20pm Post subject: |
|
|
Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17621
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
|
|
| Krapp wrote: |
Since these opps are loony, I would be more inclined to call (3-way not HtoH) then to re-raise.
|
I agree, but that's not the case here. Only the EV of the side pot is.
| Krapp wrote: |
However the loose/aggressive/passive players, when you get to the river and theres alot of cards that can beat you, i think its dubious play to re-raise confidently (as though you have the winning hand) |
We're not talking TPTKish hand here. We have top set. A whole lot of (maybe even most) "random hand" suck-outs are via 2 pair. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed, 08 Sep 2004, 3:02pm Post subject: |
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 1887
WPP: 103
Location: Kansas City
|
|
| Fnord wrote: | | Krapp wrote: |
Since these opps are loony, I would be more inclined to call (3-way not HtoH) then to re-raise.
|
I agree, but that's not the case here. Only the EV of the side pot is. | But the thing that I don't see is that there wouldn't be a side pot if you just call on the river. (well, there would be a side pot, but it would be very small)
Are you creating your own +EV by creating a side pot and raising on the river? If this is the case, than this is where I'm getting confused.
It is best to call in a 3 way, but raise in a 2 way. But this is kinda both. If you raise, it will only be 2 way, but if you call it will be 3 way. So both calling and raising are correct. Is this right? I'm all turned around. Help me. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FTR100: $100 Freeroll on Hollywood! November 28, 18:00 ET!!
