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Poker Forum
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Posted: Fri, 30 Sep 2005, 11:41am Post subject: Strange play from opponent. |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 2492
WPP: 93
Location: Arlington, VA
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What do you do here? No information on this opponent.
PokerStars Game #2695370448: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2005/09/30 - 14:37:04 (ET)
Table 'Nemo' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: armyinbama ($405.60 in chips)
Seat 2: dsaxton ($379.95 in chips)
Seat 3: scumbag joe ($220.50 in chips)
Seat 4: AceWars ($55.90 in chips)
Seat 5: thestreak ($229.85 in chips)
Seat 6: otterbear ($216.45 in chips)
Seat 7: alithegreat ($103.80 in chips)
Seat 9: peepleschamp ($198 in chips)
alithegreat: posts small blind $1
peepleschamp: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dsaxton [Jd 8d]
armyinbama: folds
dsaxton: raises $6 to $8
scumbag joe: folds
AceWars: folds
thestreak: folds
otterbear: folds
alithegreat: calls $7
peepleschamp: folds
*** FLOP *** [3c 5c Jh]
alithegreat: checks
dsaxton: bets $12
alithegreat: calls $12
*** TURN *** [3c 5c Jh] [Th]
alithegreat: bets $40
dsaxton: ??? |
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Posted: Fri, 30 Sep 2005, 1:04pm Post subject: |
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Full House
Joined: 23 Mar 2005
Posts: 893
WPP: 130
Location: 25/50's f'in hard!
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| What were you doing raising to 4x BB in EP with J8s in full 200 NL game? Thats suicide imo. He's probably got a good hand, some people like to make a big stand on the turn with their good hands. If i had to guess jack with better kicker or set, maybe even overpair. Fold. |
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Posted: Fri, 30 Sep 2005, 1:43pm Post subject: |
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Season II
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 1697
WPP: 68
Location: MI
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| At this point I am looking for a reason to get out of the hand. You can get out for only $20 and I would probably do this as I think you are behind here. A set of 10's makes sense to me or a strong jack. It is a little confusing to me though b/c I would think he would want to protect his Jack from the club draw on the flop. |
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Posted: Fri, 30 Sep 2005, 1:50pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 3037
WPP: 95
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| Les_Worm wrote: | | It is a little confusing to me though b/c I would think he would want to protect his Jack from the club draw on the flop. |
Little risks and deviations for the purpose of deception (slowplaying something with minimal vulnerability) translate into mountains of implied odds in certain situations. It's one of those "I know you know I would normally protect against the flush here, therfore I should do the opposite."
If someone's making a read on you and you know it, it's natural to want to shake it up a bit.
I tend to do this kind of thing to more intelligent opponents for obvious reasons. There's no need to manipulate someone's read when they're likely not even making one on you.
Also, if you have a good enough read, sometimes you can all but rule out certain draws and ignore them.
By the way I'm sure you know all this. I was merely working off what you said for the general readers, not correcting you. |
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Posted: Fri, 30 Sep 2005, 2:15pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 2492
WPP: 93
Location: Arlington, VA
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| spino1i wrote: | | What were you doing raising to 4x BB in EP with J8s in full 200 NL game? Thats suicide imo. He's probably got a good hand, some people like to make a big stand on the turn with their good hands. If i had to guess jack with better kicker or set, maybe even overpair. Fold. |
Because I was representing a hand. It hardly matters what my cards are since I'm not even going to end up showing this hand down 90% of the time. I just saw a couple suited, semi-connected cards with a jack, so I have some flush and marginal pairing and straight value, and decided to make this play.
Plus, if the hand does get shown, I'll be more likely to get loose action later on, and since I'm raising with hands like this along with premium hands I'll be raising more frequently, which makes it seem like I have loose raising standards (which is true when this is the case). Nothing says that someone is a rock more than folding 20 hands in a row, and then finally raising. |
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Posted: Fri, 30 Sep 2005, 3:26pm Post subject: |
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Full House
Joined: 23 Mar 2005
Posts: 893
WPP: 130
Location: 25/50's f'in hard!
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| dsaxton wrote: | | spino1i wrote: | | What were you doing raising to 4x BB in EP with J8s in full 200 NL game? Thats suicide imo. He's probably got a good hand, some people like to make a big stand on the turn with their good hands. If i had to guess jack with better kicker or set, maybe even overpair. Fold. |
Because I was representing a hand. It hardly matters what my cards are since I'm not even going to end up showing this hand down 90% of the time. I just saw a couple suited, semi-connected cards with a jack, so I have some flush and marginal pairing and straight value, and decided to make this play.
Plus, if the hand does get shown, I'll be more likely to get loose action later on, and since I'm raising with hands like this along with premium hands I'll be raising more frequently, which makes it seem like I have loose raising standards (which is true when this is the case). Nothing says that someone is a rock more than folding 20 hands in a row, and then finally raising. |
Youd be surpised how often you see a showdown. What you're basically doing is signing yourself up to play a dominated hand out of position (its very likely someone will call with AA-88, AJ, KJ, QJ, KQ all sorts of nasty stuff thats ahead of you). This is a sure recipe for disaster. And what is your reward if you "bluff" the opposition out and no one calls you? You win a paltry 3 dollars (the blinds) while risking 8 dollars. Its just not worth it in my opinion. |
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Posted: Fri, 30 Sep 2005, 4:10pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 2492
WPP: 93
Location: Arlington, VA
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| spino1i wrote: | | dsaxton wrote: | | spino1i wrote: | | What were you doing raising to 4x BB in EP with J8s in full 200 NL game? Thats suicide imo. He's probably got a good hand, some people like to make a big stand on the turn with their good hands. If i had to guess jack with better kicker or set, maybe even overpair. Fold. |
Because I was representing a hand. It hardly matters what my cards are since I'm not even going to end up showing this hand down 90% of the time. I just saw a couple suited, semi-connected cards with a jack, so I have some flush and marginal pairing and straight value, and decided to make this play.
Plus, if the hand does get shown, I'll be more likely to get loose action later on, and since I'm raising with hands like this along with premium hands I'll be raising more frequently, which makes it seem like I have loose raising standards (which is true when this is the case). Nothing says that someone is a rock more than folding 20 hands in a row, and then finally raising. |
Youd be surpised how often you see a showdown. What you're basically doing is signing yourself up to play a dominated hand out of position (its very likely someone will call with AA-88, AJ, KJ, QJ, KQ all sorts of nasty stuff thats ahead of you). This is a sure recipe for disaster. And what is your reward if you "bluff" the opposition out and no one calls you? You win a paltry 3 dollars (the blinds) while risking 8 dollars. Its just not worth it in my opinion. |
I know about how often I'll see a showdown, since I do this constantly. If someone calls with a hand which dominates mine, then there's only a 10% chance that the shared card will flop, and the rest of the time I'll usually be able to successfully bluff the other player out because they miss or a scare card for their hand falls (e.g., I raise with J-8, my opponent calls with A-J, and the flop comes K, J, 4)
If I have no hand and my flop bet gets called or raised, then 99% of the time, I'm done with the hand and I've hardly lost anything. But you're ignoring the situation where I actually make the best hand and get action from a second best hand, which actually does happen with surprising frequency in situations like these. I've made plays like this in the past with similar hands and won huge pots after catching a favorable flop because my aggressive play had been building the pot, and my opponent usually misreads my hand.
As far as getting called by a hand which is "ahead" is concerned, in a cash game, preflop "win percentages" are almost completely irrelevant unless a player is all-in before the flop. It doesn't matter if a player with K-Q or A-J is a significant favorite over me. They're going to fold most of the time on the flop anyways as long as I continue betting aggressively.
Finally, it's not really a case of "I'm risking $8 to win $3." First, I risk $8 to win $3, and if that fails, I'll risk $12 to win around $20, and finally I may make the best hand and not even have to bluff. And all this has the added benefit of perhaps contributing to a reputation as a loose player. |
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Posted: Fri, 30 Sep 2005, 5:17pm Post subject: |
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Full House
Joined: 23 Mar 2005
Posts: 893
WPP: 130
Location: 25/50's f'in hard!
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| dsaxton wrote: | | spino1i wrote: | | dsaxton wrote: | | spino1i wrote: | | What were you doing raising to 4x BB in EP with J8s in full 200 NL game? Thats suicide imo. He's probably got a good hand, some people like to make a big stand on the turn with their good hands. If i had to guess jack with better kicker or set, maybe even overpair. Fold. |
Because I was representing a hand. It hardly matters what my cards are since I'm not even going to end up showing this hand down 90% of the time. I just saw a couple suited, semi-connected cards with a jack, so I have some flush and marginal pairing and straight value, and decided to make this play.
Plus, if the hand does get shown, I'll be more likely to get loose action later on, and since I'm raising with hands like this along with premium hands I'll be raising more frequently, which makes it seem like I have loose raising standards (which is true when this is the case). Nothing says that someone is a rock more than folding 20 hands in a row, and then finally raising. |
Youd be surpised how often you see a showdown. What you're basically doing is signing yourself up to play a dominated hand out of position (its very likely someone will call with AA-88, AJ, KJ, QJ, KQ all sorts of nasty stuff thats ahead of you). This is a sure recipe for disaster. And what is your reward if you "bluff" the opposition out and no one calls you? You win a paltry 3 dollars (the blinds) while risking 8 dollars. Its just not worth it in my opinion. |
I know about how often I'll see a showdown, since I do this constantly. If someone calls with a hand which dominates mine, then there's only a 10% chance that the shared card will flop, and the rest of the time I'll usually be able to successfully bluff the other player out because they miss or a scare card for their hand falls (e.g., I raise with J-8, my opponent calls with A-J, and the flop comes K, J, 4)
If I have no hand and my flop bet gets called or raised, then 99% of the time, I'm done with the hand and I've hardly lost anything. But you're ignoring the situation where I actually make the best hand and get action from a second best hand, which actually does happen with surprising frequency in situations like these. I've made plays like this in the past with similar hands and won huge pots after catching a favorable flop because my aggressive play had been building the pot, and my opponent usually misreads my hand.
As far as getting called by a hand which is "ahead" is concerned, in a cash game, preflop "win percentages" are almost completely irrelevant unless a player is all-in before the flop. It doesn't matter if a player with K-Q or A-J is a significant favorite over me. They're going to fold most of the time on the flop anyways as long as I continue betting aggressively.
Finally, it's not really a case of "I'm risking $8 to win $3." First, I risk $8 to win $3, and if that fails, I'll risk $12 to win around $20, and finally I may make the best hand and not even have to bluff. And all this has the added benefit of perhaps contributing to a reputation as a loose player. |
Only poor players call that raise and then fold most of the time. Any smart one would only call with a hand that would most likely be hard for him to let go. Bluffing him would be difficult and risky. |
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Posted: Fri, 30 Sep 2005, 5:45pm Post subject: |
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Flush
Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 436
WPP: 71
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| The only way you're ahead here is if he's caught on to your LAggy ways and is simply playing back at you. And if that's likely enough that you put that much money behind it, perhaps it's time to shift gears? |
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Posted: Fri, 30 Sep 2005, 9:45pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 2492
WPP: 93
Location: Arlington, VA
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| I folded, I just had a hard time putting him on a hand. I think this was probably a clumsy slow-play with a high pair preflop and on the flop. |
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Posted: Sat, 01 Oct 2005, 12:01am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 1602
WPP: 105
Location: Party 6 max
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Posted: Sat, 01 Oct 2005, 11:33pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 2492
WPP: 93
Location: Arlington, VA
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PokerStars Game #2707937632: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2005/10/02 - 02:26:51 (ET)
Table 'Markab' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: dsaxton ($239.85 in chips)
Seat 2: Gator1 ($210 in chips)
Seat 3: hub387 ($315.25 in chips)
Seat 4: birnard ($203.40 in chips)
Seat 5: BigIron15 ($76 in chips)
Seat 6: pmilanov ($204.70 in chips)
Seat 7: MK12 ($110.40 in chips)
Seat 8: neo21k ($520.45 in chips)
Seat 9: rotate ($90.70 in chips)
MK12: posts small blind $1
neo21k: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dsaxton [Jc 9c]
rotate: folds
dsaxton: raises $6 to $8
Gator1: folds
hub387: folds
birnard: calls $8
BigIron15: folds
pmilanov: folds
MK12: folds
neo21k: folds
*** FLOP *** [7d Qc Tc]
dsaxton: bets $12
birnard: raises $22 to $34
dsaxton: raises $197.85 to $231.85 and is all-in
birnard: calls $161.40 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [7d Qc Tc] [Kd]
*** RIVER *** [7d Qc Tc Kd] [9s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
dsaxton: shows [Jc 9c] (a straight, Nine to King)
birnard: mucks hand
dsaxton collected $406.80 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $409.80 | Rake $3
Board [7d Qc Tc Kd 9s]
Seat 1: dsaxton showed [Jc 9c] and won ($406.80) with a straight, Nine to King
Seat 2: Gator1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: hub387 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: birnard mucked [Qs Ad]
Seat 5: BigIron15 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: pmilanov (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: MK12 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: neo21k (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: rotate folded before Flop (didn't bet) |
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