How to play this kind of table? update

*Last edited by andaval on Thu, 19 Aug 2004, 9:13pm; edited 1 time in total*

Hello all,

I've played a couple games of NL Texas Hold 'Em with some of my friends (6 total) and after a bad beat last night I'm frustrated and wondering if I should change my strategy. I would characterize the table as pretty beginner level: people call too many bets, it is rare that there is a pre-flop raise. I would say it's generally hard to bluff because people call a lot even with bottom pair, and people tend to underbet a lot too (20% or less of the pot with top pair top kicker with no flush or straight) which can make it hard to put them on a hand. People call bets rather than reraise all the time, but will call reraises if you do it to them. I decided I should try and get in to see the flop cheap with almost anything, from most positions because I am unlikely to be raised, wait for a good hand and let them call me all the way down, maybe slowplay it if I flop an absolute monster and try and let them catch a little something to bet with. Well, I got one good hand all night while someone else was always getting two pair or trips. I got whittled down all night trying to catch something and finally went all-in fairly shortstacked from BB with only limpers with A10o 4-handed, got one caller with 910s and lost when he caught a 9 on the river. Anyway, what are some ways to do better at this table? Thanks for any advice...

Well getting better cards would be a start. Smile

I believe in the "play alot of draw hands" at a loose/passive cash game, but I don't know how that can work out for you in a tournament where you're trying to preserve your stack. Why not sit for a strong hand and make the suckers pay when you get it?

I'm not a tourney expert like some on this site, but I don't see how you take advantage of your playing skill by becoming more like the table.

I'll try that getting good cards thing next time. Wink

I play some home games a lot like you explained. The only difference is that we usually have 12-14 players instead of 6.

I've tried the seeing almost every flop thing, but with this, is seemed like I had to get lucky to win. Since then, I've tightened my game pre-flop, and allowed everyone to pay me when I get a monster. To do this, I had to first develop a reputation of being tight and only playing big hands. It might take more than one night, which can really be a pain. After the reputation is set, I just steal a lot post flop and play it out if someone calls because it usually doesn’t cost me much more than my original pot-stealing attempt. If the people you are playing with get the perception that you are only playing big hands, getting them to fold post flop is much easier. However, I do agree that getting some beginner types to fold pre-flop even with this strategy can be difficult at best. For some reason many of these guys just have to see flops and usually catch with crappy hands.

If you stay with what you are doing and play everything, there is really no reason for them to fold because they know you WILL play almost anything. For beginners, a reputation will be a better weapon for you than good cards. And, yes, I do believe that.

This has worked for me, and I will be using it again this coming weekend. I'll let you know how it comes out.

Sounds like you're playing the "no fold'em" crowd.

This may help No foldem holdem

Thanks for the advice, everybody. I was playing drawing hands every time pot odds justified it, and I never hit my draw... arrggh! I have successfully slowplayed in the past because if they feel like you're bluffing (like you've been checking the whole hand) they'll call really large bets 'just to keep you honest'. But I'll try to take them piecemeal more often and see how that works.

If you're playing against fish / people who will call just about anything, you really have to pick up a hand to beat them. Just have patience.

Believe me when I say this, I know what you are dealing with. I play $1 buy-ins with my friends and its no foldem, call everything holdem.

It's very simple to beat this, play tight and wait for premium hands like AA, KK, AK suited, etc. I know it's very boring to wait around as you watch hands being played in front of you with a lot of action. It also sucks when somehow you lose vs 73 when you had AK.

Other than playing the premium hands, play suited connectors, or high suited cards as when you do catch the flush, you'll notice you'll make up for anything you paid to draw for in the past.

I played in a home tournament exactly like this last weekend, 20 players, $25 buy in, one $15 addon/buy in per person that everyone but one person used . Most of the players had very little experience at Holdem, many players would limp in and call raises with practically anything, the preflop raising was rare, almost everyone underbet their big hands after the flop (tons of limpers usually, plus antes, so the pots at the flop were huge, but they'd bet 100 into a 500+ pot), calling down with weak hands etc.

One hand I remember that gives this example well is this one. One guy bets pretty big at the flop, another guy raises, 3rd guy calls, everyone else folds. First guy pretty big again, second guy raises, 3rd guy is pissed and folds. On the river the first guy bets again, and the 2nd guy just calls. The first guy has 2nd pair, the 2nd guy has pocket 2s. The third guy is pissed at the way the 2nd guy bet it, because he folded two pair and thought the 2nd guy had a flush (but there were only two of two different suits on the board). The second guy's reasoning is, "Well I had to stay in, because I could've hit the 3 of a kind". He said that like 3 times, completely serious.

So yeah ... there was absolutely no use bluffing early in this game. I played extremely tight, folded QQ on the flop with an ace on it and one guy betting big (who eneded up having JJ with a set of jacks on the flop, and 4 on the turn). Only hand I won for a while was 66 on the big blind, with a low flop (and turn and river), with a straight draw that didn't hit. I bet it pretty hard, and after the hand one guy was shocked that I won with 66, because "that's not a very good hand". Finally I won a big pot pot with JJ that hit top set on the flop, when the guy to my right bet huge on the flop. Finally a big bet, and I knew this guy knew what he was doing more than most of the other guys. He had KK, another guy ended up being put all in at the flop, and I more than doubled up.

I kept playing real tight, mostly missing flops when I had good cards, until I got down to 6 players where I was the shortest stack. I got ATs here, and had to go all in, and got called by JJ and QT. This is the only hand I really got lucky on all tourney, but it was enough, as the ace hit on the flop and I tripled up, QT went out (for some reason calling JJs bets all the way to the river where he hit a T, and went all in).

Finally I was able to loosen up and I bluffed a lot more, and it worked a lot more often. The biggest one was 56s that I limped in with. The flop was something like J87, two of a suit (not mine). I checked, one guy bet rather big and I called. Turn was a rag, and I checked again, and again he bet and I called. River was a rag, but the flush draw didn't come and for some reason I put him on that. I lead out big on the river and he folded, and I showed my bluff which shocked everyone. May have hurt me in the long run to show though, because I never really hit a big hand after this, so my intention of getting them to call me more often didn't work.

For some reason I think the new players mainly base their respect for you on your stack size. They fold to bets from big stacks, but call bets from small stacks, when really it should be more likely to be the other way around, since the big stack is more likely to bluff big. I noticed one big stack that was basically a maniac walked over my first table for a long time early on.

Anyway, I ended up finishing 2nd, as the guy that won it had a huge chip advantage over me when it got down to two players. I got horrible cards once it got heads up, he wouldn't fold to my bluffs (usually went all in over the top of me every time), and finally I was forced to go all in preflop twice with rags, as the blinds were eating me alive. He called both times, the first I won over his Ax, the second I had 86 to his 88 and lost. It was a lot of fun though.

So ... to make a long story short, when playing a tournament against mainly inexperienced players, I recommend being very tight early on, and then loosening up later when you have a big stack and are nearing the money.

At a loose table...
(1)you need to become a bit tighter
(2)use less semi-bluffs and less bluffs
(3)bet more for value/strength
(4)as soon as the pot gets LARGE, TAKE IT DOWN, dont hope for calls unless you have the pure nuts( Royal flush). Dont hope for calls, even if the other player only has 1 out. you need to WIN THE BIG POTS RIGHT AWAY
(5)only play marginal hands if you are getting good pot odds(example: you only have to call 5 dollars to get a chance at a 50 dollar pot)

better to win a small pot, then lose a large pot

so be patient, let these loose players go all in and knock down the table to short-handed, and most of all, dont get frustrated and on tilt 8-)

How I would play the table:
(1) Preflop raise with a strong hand (2x-3x BB)
(2) If you catch top-pair with good kicker: (bet 2x-3x BB to river)
(3) Dont slow-play unless you have a nut hand.
(4) Dont play marginal hands unless good pot odds and bets are low and for hands where you are drawing to a top hand (flush or straight)
(5) Overbet strong hands (2pair+)

With this style you should win lots of small-medium pots and accumalate a sizable profit. At these tables I would only play top-pair and strong drawing hands (8+ outs) and keep my bets at 2x-3x BB unless I had a strong or nut hand (2pair+)

Hello again, I had my revenge this week and ended up with $30 on a $10 buy-in. Probably the biggest difference was that I finally caught some cards this week, but I was able to turn them into $$$. I played a disciplined game, not trying to turn rags to gold on the flop and was able to out-kick people in some big pots because of it. Also had good seating position, with aggresive people to my right and tighter people to my left. It definitely helped to raise 2 or 3XBB on strong hands, they were essentially willing to play my good hands for more money all night while I folded out with weak stuff. I did lose a good $10 or so heads up when the other guy completed his flush on the river, but I was able to get maybe half of it back playing aggressive pre-flop before he called it quits. I broke two guys on one pot when I caught a set from a pocket pair on the river -- I had bet strong pre-flop, gotten two callers and it was all overcards until the river -- I put them both on a pair higher than mine but they didn't bet enough to get me out of the pot -- got a little payback for the bad beats last week. Very Happy

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