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Posted: Tue, 30 May 2006, 5:40am Post subject: "The biggest money-making secret in poker" comment |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 3532
WPP: 95
Location: Your place or my place
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Posted: Tue, 30 May 2006, 5:47am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 2195
WPP: 52
Location: NZ
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| I agree. Over the last week or so I've dedicated myself to playing at least 1k hands/day. Gotta put the time in to win. |
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Posted: Tue, 30 May 2006, 6:22am Post subject: |
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Flush
Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 425
WPP: 109
Location: trying to outdraw the nuts
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Posted: Tue, 30 May 2006, 7:29am Post subject: |
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Where's the AI button!?
Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 4481
WPP: 88
Location: TagFish
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| Good post, and surprisingly well written. |
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Posted: Tue, 30 May 2006, 7:31am Post subject: |
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Full House
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 666
WPP: 95
Location: Decatur, IL
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| I remember reading an article by D. Negraneu on Cardplayer a few years ago when I first started playing, talking about how he always plays for hours instead of results or hands and it seemed like a good idea to me. So since I graduated and decided not to get a job, I play 5 hours of poker/day regardless of how I'm doing and I think setting up that system has been one of the smartest things I've done in terms of poker. |
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Posted: Tue, 30 May 2006, 7:32am Post subject: |
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Where's the AI button!?
Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 4481
WPP: 88
Location: TagFish
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| Nehmer wrote: | | I think setting up that system has been one of the smartest things I've done in terms of poker. |
*cough* full ring *cough*
You still living in CU or have you since moved on? |
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Posted: Tue, 30 May 2006, 7:37am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 3532
WPP: 95
Location: Your place or my place
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| elipsesjeff wrote: | | Good post, and surprisingly well written. |
surprisingly??? ;] |
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Posted: Tue, 30 May 2006, 9:16am Post subject: |
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Full House
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 666
WPP: 95
Location: Decatur, IL
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| elipsesjeff wrote: | | Nehmer wrote: | | I think setting up that system has been one of the smartest things I've done in terms of poker. |
*cough* full ring *cough*
You still living in CU or have you since moved on? |
Say what you will about me playing full ring, but my Poker Tracker stats show my hourly rate to be well higher at full ring than SH. It might be that the other players suck worse at SH, but apparently I do too, so it doesn't make much sense for me to play there  I live in Decatur now, which is about 45 minutes from CU. |
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Posted: Tue, 30 May 2006, 9:36am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 3217
WPP: 155
Location: Watching African Handball.
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awesome post
I might print this one out. |
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Posted: Tue, 30 May 2006, 9:54am Post subject: |
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 81
WPP: 68
Location: Canada
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Posted: Tue, 30 May 2006, 9:59am Post subject: |
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Full House
Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 722
WPP: 43
Location: Philly
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Wow, that's amazing how well Benjamin Graham's theories fit so well into poker. I just realized how similar stock performance is to poker performance. As long as the stock I bought is of a good, strong company, I don't need to be checking its price every day or even every week. Need to have faith in my research and decision =)
Awesome post Euph- |
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Posted: Tue, 30 May 2006, 10:40am Post subject: |
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Radministrator
Joined: 04 Dec 2003
Posts: 4982
WPP: 104
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
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| Nice. I've added it to the new Small Stakes LHE Digest sticky. |
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Posted: Tue, 30 May 2006, 11:14am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 1968
WPP: 96
Location: 6max limit tables
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Not real sure why I had never seen this post before but it comes at a time that it was good for me to read...
After having a horrible last 1/2 of this month i sit no where near what I had wanted to be at...
well I take that back I’m not horribly off from what I expected I was only shooting for +$2k this month to move up to 5/10 well I made that and a lot more, but I slipped myself into a downward spiral didn't play all that optimal, and next thing you know I’m 1k short of what I had wanted...
Yesterday I was not very happy with the situation given that yesterday was the biggest - swing I have taken in 1 day... I was mad at myself for investing poorly in places and mad at myself that I like myself get into that predicament in the first place...
Shit happens, by learning from your own mistakes and others advice things will pain out... I’m happy I read this post today because it pulled my head out of my ass made me slap myself and keep my chin up...
Nice post… |
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Posted: Tue, 30 May 2006, 1:36pm Post subject: |
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Where's the AI button!?
Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 4481
WPP: 88
Location: TagFish
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| Nehmer wrote: | | but apparently I do too, so it doesn't make much sense for me to play there Very Happy |
It might be wise to learn the game sooner rather than later. If you ever plan on moving up and staying at Party, then you must learn 6 max no doubt about it. I'm glad you are doing so well at FR and you might not do as well at SH right off the bat. But, that doesn't mean it won't make you a better player.
Play what you will, but you should at least devote SOME of your time learning 6 max, whether its 1k hands a week or a day a week or something, but you should get accustomed to it. |
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Posted: Tue, 30 May 2006, 3:31pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 1968
WPP: 96
Location: 6max limit tables
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| elipsesjeff wrote: | | Nehmer wrote: | | but apparently I do too, so it doesn't make much sense for me to play there Very Happy |
It might be wise to learn the game sooner rather than later. If you ever plan on moving up and staying at Party, then you must learn 6 max no doubt about it. I'm glad you are doing so well at FR and you might not do as well at SH right off the bat. But, that doesn't mean it won't make you a better player.
Play what you will, but you should at least devote SOME of your time learning 6 max, whether its 1k hands a week or a day a week or something, but you should get accustomed to it. |
I played the 10/20 FR game durring the day and only thing that got me even was the fact i knew 6 max... hands were regulerly only 2-4 handed post folp (typical of a 6max game)... and was a lot more argo (also typical of a 6max game)... honestly i thought it blew big donkey balls... |
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Posted: Wed, 31 May 2006, 11:35am Post subject: |
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 97
WPP: 155
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| great post...I'm pretty much a tournament player...a tournament player who obsessively checks his rank in the tourney as well as his chip stack in relation to the average, and how many double ups i will need to get to the average or to the chip lead or at this rate will i make the money etc.etc. Imagine how may patterns I might create. Next Tourney no lobby open for me until first break at least. |
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Posted: Thu, 01 Jun 2006, 4:03am Post subject: |
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Full House
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1154
WPP: 111
Location: surfing in a room
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nice post connecting investing books to poker.
for a newbie like me who´s playing trying to improve his play, not primary to make cash, and learning every day it´s colliding with the quote " get the hell off ur computer when ur tilting", what prompts at least weekly in my mind. 
hopefully i´ll get to the point finding that post useful to me one day. |
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Posted: Thu, 01 Jun 2006, 5:39pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 18 Aug 2004
Posts: 3544
WPP: 78
Location: emo-kid
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| fantastic post! this will be of great help to many players. |
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Posted: Tue, 06 Jun 2006, 2:15pm Post subject: |
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Full House
Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 863
WPP: 161
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Posted: Tue, 06 Jun 2006, 3:23pm Post subject: |
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Full House
Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 966
WPP: 129
Location: st. paul, MO
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AOK's rare siting on the limit forums, and it's 1 word!
But it was a good one word, and with triple exclamation!!! |
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Posted: Sat, 10 Jun 2006, 4:14pm Post subject: |
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Flush
Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 475
WPP: 99
Location: Miami, Florida
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| Great post Euph. The basic logic is a great refresher, and I don't usually tilt, but I have been keeping the post in mind during my sessions and it is making short downswings easier to shrug off by keeping me focused. |
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Posted: Thu, 15 Jun 2006, 1:44pm Post subject: |
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Straight
Joined: 22 Oct 2005
Posts: 207
WPP: 124
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| euphoricicsm wrote: | Yet how many people do you know check their stocks religiously throughout the day? Going so far as to have them beamed to their cell-phones so they can know anywhere, anytime.
Is it doing them any good?
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In this day and age an intelligent investor always knows the price of their stock. When you see headlines like this screaming across your monitor, "Bush Cites Security, Waives SEC Reporting Rules" you had better pay attention to what your investment is doing. One can no longer afford not to have a grasp of what their stock is doing on a daily basis for if you forget about it one day, it may not be there the next time you look.
I think there are some similarites between the market and poker, paticularly in the department of psychology but most often the analogies fall a little flat.
| euphoricicsm wrote: |
The real secret to making money in poker is speeding up the long-term process.
This is the easiest way to increase your poker profits. And it takes no effort. It is so simple, you do nothing different than what you usually do. You just do a little more of it.
You just play more poker.
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If poker is like intelligent investing why should one try to speed up their profits in one day at poker and be so results oriented on a daily basis if at the same time they shouldn't be paying attention to what their results are on a daily basis if they are in the market? So in order to speed up ones return in the stock market are they supposed to make more trades or just keep buying more shares in the same stock? That is a recipe for disaster, especially since there is one very significant relationship between poker and investing. They are both minus sum games.
Not only are they both minus sum games, but unlike the market poker forces you to take positions in hands you might have otherwise passed up on. So poker eats away at your profits by forcing you to play when you might not want to, as well as taking a rake on ones profits. In attempting to speed up ones profits you might in the process decrease your net. |
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Posted: Thu, 15 Jun 2006, 2:39pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 3445
WPP: 71
Location: Canuckistan
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| strawman wrote: | | euphoricicsm wrote: |
The real secret to making money in poker is speeding up the long-term process.
This is the easiest way to increase your poker profits. And it takes no effort. It is so simple, you do nothing different than what you usually do. You just do a little more of it.
You just play more poker.
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If poker is like intelligent investing why should one try to speed up their profits in one day at poker and be so results oriented on a daily basis if at the same time they shouldn't be paying attention to what their results are on a daily basis if they are in the market? So in order to speed up ones return in the stock market are they supposed to make more trades or just keep buying more shares in the same stock? That is a recipe for disaster, especially since there is one very significant relationship between poker and investing. They are both minus sum games.
Not only are they both minus sum games, but unlike the market poker forces you to take positions in hands you might have otherwise passed up on. So poker eats away at your profits by forcing you to play when you might not want to, as well as taking a rake on ones profits. In attempting to speed up ones profits you might in the process decrease your net. |
You are ignoring the time value of money.
When you invest, you are looking for long-term appreciation of capital over time - increases in the value of your stocks, dividends, gains from compound interest, etc.
In poker, your opportunity to make money ends with the end of the hand. You have to reinvest in the next hand for the process to continue. The more hands you play over time, the faster you make money.
And don't ever think that there's no rake taken on your investments. Brokerage fees, trailing commissions, MERs, interest rate speads...there's rake alright, and lots of it. |
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Posted: Thu, 15 Jun 2006, 5:05pm Post subject: |
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Straight
Joined: 22 Oct 2005
Posts: 207
WPP: 124
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| Warpe wrote: |
You are ignoring the time value of money.
When you invest, you are looking for long-term appreciation of capital over time - increases in the value of your stocks, dividends, gains from compound interest, etc.
In poker, your opportunity to make money ends with the end of the hand. You have to reinvest in the next hand for the process to continue. The more hands you play over time, the faster you make money.
And don't ever think that there's no rake taken on your investments. Brokerage fees, trailing commissions, MERs, interest rate speads...there's rake alright, and lots of it. |
What am I ignoring? I stated clearly that they are both minus sum games. Obviously ones ability to capitalize on a poker hand ends with the hand and restarts with the next deal which in one manner makes poker a riskier endeavour than investing, but fairly on par with day trading. So in an example giving in the original post:
| euphoricicsm wrote: |
"I went up 50 bets in 200 hands and I stopped playing. And I did it several times. But then I had big corrosponding losing sessions - the only difference being that I would play my full 1000 hand sessions on those days. Whats the net effect? I played less hands. Significantly less hands. And as such, I made significantly less profit."
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how does it follow that playing more hands increases ones profits? Obviously it can, however as the quote indicates the author actually was losing money the more hands he played and somehow comes to the conclusion that it is better to play more?
Again, it doesn't follow that playing more hands increases profits, although it does increase the potential for profits. Playing well and playing against softer competition and picking an optimal seat would more strongly correlate to profits. Playing more hands simply increases the likelyhood of being dealt better starting hands but when the deck is cold or your game is off it can be significantly less profitable. As pros often opine, even when down for a session if the game is juicy, they are playing well and the competition is soft there's no reason to leave the table. They don't generally recommend playing more hands for the sake of playing hands until you reach a benchmark.
Overall I do believe there are similarities between investing/trading and poker and the discipline and diligence one must have when studying both fields, but just as poker has changed since Super System was written, the market has changed in the 50+ years since the Intelligent Investor was written. The underlining psychology of both pursuits is similar since they both are risk/reward oriented exposing ones own fears and greed and that IMO is the more significant issue to deal with, than how to apply one's investment methodology to their poker methodology. |
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