Operation: Ben learns poker and builds a roll

Thanks guys. Its 8 buyin downswing now, but yeah only 5 in that session and less than 3 down overall. Gotta make sure I work the basics hard, table selection, playing when good, make money from the fish. I wonder if maybe I'm tending to focus too much on the regs atm. Sometimes I'll realise I've been at a table for a fair while and not played with the target yet.

I also wonder if I overthink the ranges they put me on. Because I have a lot of mined hands I'm identifying the regs and got their stats/etc, but I'm still new to 200nl, to a lot of these guys I'm unknown.

lol nice work if you can call it work Wink

On a personal note, weighed in this morning and I'm now the lightest I've been since first year of Uni (first year cooking for myself when I kinda...didn't so just wasted away). Almost 14kg lighter than my heaviest Christmas before last, down about 8-9kg this year (lbs multiply by 2.2). Strangely enough because I've been getting sick on and off for the last few months I've actually done it without consistent exercise leaving me in a position where I look the best I have for ages, but I'm actually fairly unfit atm. Hopefully can do something about that going forward. Always figured it would be easier to get fit when I wasn't carrying the extra weight, so time to find out.

It's more fun when you miss and you flip over A high and they muck

I don't get why you're jamming that flop

also, gratz on the weight loss, good stuff yo

NFD + gutshot? If I'm not going to stick that in, what am I?

ofc we're getting it in, making it $60/call is better

Ahh, hmmm, dunno. Guess I'd prefer to make sure we get it in rather than get flatted and miss turn. Cant really remember what went through my mind at the time.

shoving is pretty poor imo. raising smaller is way better to get him to shove more. your shove means he should only call u with sets. his call is horrible, he should even fold an Axdd draw vs that shove.

The fact he's steaming doesnt make it ok? I dunno, I like to keep max pressure on when someones ready to burst.

Meh, feels so swingy. I think I've become a little to desensitized to the money on the tables and making some mistakes in an effort to be more aggressive. 200 hands this morning and ran bad (lost every single ai) to finish 2.5 buyins down, which was exactly my aiEV difference. AA < QQ ai pre in a $550 pot to top things off for a shitty session. Makes me up less than a buyin for the whole weekend. Feeling kinda shitty. Just when things start running my way they turn to crap again.

Start my new role at work today. Going to be much busier and have to travel a bunch, so my play time is going to be greatly reduced. Will need to load the PSP up and watch a bunch of vids while travelling and stuff. Still not certain what my schedule will be, just know it wont leave anywhere near as much time.

You'd be wrong, but what are you going to do? If I play my 12+ out draws fast, then all you can do is go with me and hope that you're flipping, which makes me good money the times I'm not drawing and I break even long term over the rest.

No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (BB) ($200)
UTG ($199.85)
Button ($28.25)
SB ($410.50)
MP ($214.55)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5

, 4

3 folds, SB bets $5, Hero calls $4

Flop: ($12) 2

, 3

, A

(2 players)
SB bets $8.55, Hero raises $24, SB calls $15.45

Turn: ($60) 8

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $47, SB raises $138, Hero raises $123 (All-In), SB calls $32

River: ($400) 6

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $400

Results:
SB had Q

, A

(one pair, Aces).
Hero had 5

, 4

(straight, six high).
Outcome: Hero won $397.50

Oops, I was 'obviously' drawing there too.

[edit for more fun]

No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($200)
CO ($206)
SB ($73)
MP ($245.85)
BB ($110.19)
UTG ($191)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5

, K

UTG bets $6, 2 folds, Hero calls $6, SB calls $5, 1 fold

Flop: ($20) 10

, 5

(3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets $16, Hero raises $45, SB raises $67 (All-In), UTG raises $169 (All-In), Hero calls $140

Turn: ($457) 9

(3 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($457) 8

(3 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $457

Results:
Hero had 5

, K

(three of a kind, fives).
SB didn't show 57s
UTG didn't show KK
Outcome: Hero won $453.50

No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($260.07)
SB ($200)
UTG ($368.10)
MP ($281.63)
BB ($66.80)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7

, 9

UTG bets $6, 1 fold, Hero calls $6, 1 fold, BB calls $4

Flop: ($19) 7

, K

, 9

(3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $13.53, Hero raises $40, 1 fold, UTG raises $348.57 (All-In), Hero calls $214.07 (All-In)

Turn: ($527.14) Q

(2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($527.14) 2

(2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $527.14

Results:
Hero had 7

, 9

(two pair, nines and sevens).
UTG had 10

, 8

(high card, King).
Outcome: Hero won $525.14

No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($248.59)
UTG ($351.13)
MP ($102.89)
BB ($346.90)
SB ($276.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10

, 10

UTG bets $6, MP calls $6, Hero calls $6, 2 folds

Flop: ($21) K

, 10

, 6

(3 players)
UTG checks, MP bets $12, Hero raises $40, 1 fold, MP calls $28

Turn: ($101) 7

(2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $99, 1 fold

Total pot: $101

Results:
Hero had 10

, 10

(three of a kind, tens).
Outcome: Hero won $198

sorry if you took it the wrong way, I made the comment with the full knowledge that I was probably wrong (that you probably had good balance with these types of plays). I just like thinking about the subtle differences between how I play certain hands and trying to eliminate these differences when it's advantageous to me so I thought you'd enjoy it too.

You're absolutely correct that it's difficult to play against.

Note that in none of those hands are you overbetting or shoving. And all but the TT hand you are calling all-in.

Like others have said, I'd 3bet A3dd smallish on that flop instead of jamming. I'd rather jam if we b/jam OOP than IP. He's not likely to flat a draw OOP and will probably just jam himself, esp. if you have a bluffing range there for 3bet folding.

K5cc hand - whattt.. fold or 3bet pre, or luckbox this flop. But let's get real, foldddd.

TTc hand - why are you betting pot? If anything this is a horrible card for you, if nothing else for the range of hands that might continue now. If you're betting so big, you're pretty much polarizing his range to only hands that beat you continuing. You also have a decent club, so betting smaller (65ish) isn't the end of the world.

Depending on how UTG plays post-flop and what his range is for raising here, I like a suited up-down (kc5c) for a call.

In the A3 hand, are you seriously playing a set exactly like this?

aaaah...

[ ] hand reading ability

btw, I really cant remember why I called K5s. If I was on my game then I'd guess he wasnt positionally aware and checked/folded a lot of missed flops. If I was off my game then I was probably tilted.

The point with those hands, was I played those big made hands identically to how I played the big draws I've been posting lately. In fact its really the opposite, I (try to) play my big draws the same way I play my big hands for balance. What I'm picking up though, is that against especially strong ranges that balance matters less than the fact that I'd be getting my draws in against strong ranges. So its like an exception to the rule where I really would be polarised towards nut hands in some situations. Also I just plain get it wrong some times, like if I had a set in the 85s hand in the SH forum I'd have donked for sure I think. Also with the A3s hand above, yeah if I had a set I'd probably raise to 60 or so. I shove for the extra FE but I obviously need to consider whether thats worth it, or whether I should keep my lines identical.

One thing I'm finding at 200nl is that its really the first level where I'm finding villains both capable of thinking clearly, and being prepared to act on their conclusions of my ranges. This means I need to be more considered and thoughtful of my own ranges and lines than I'm used to.

Just finished the month for me. A lot of work to get done today and in town tomorrow so this mornings session was the last for the month. Booked just over 1/2 buyin which tipped me back over $1k for the month. Wasn't even thinking about that, but its nice. Including Bonus/promotions I cleared over $2k for the month. Should be super excited but just flat. Even though I beat 200nl for the month (barely) it feels hollow. Maybe my expectations were too high. It was fairly swingy so emotionally I went through some real highs and lows, so meh, maybe compared to my high points it doesn't feel as good. Going to go away and think about some things, will write up a monthly review later today or another day.

where the hell u getting the extra 1k? I want some, 27% RB on FT does suck

*Last edited by daven on Thu, 30 Jul 2009, 2:26am; edited 1 time in total*

Yeah, nothing reproducible sorry. Genius hand plus I'm still clearing my $500 welcome Bonus, think I cleared about $250-$300 of that this month, but after its gone (only $50 left) then I'm stuck with reload bonuses until I can afford to buy their bonuses and the one I want to buy will probably take me 5-6 months to save for. Your 27% on FT is probably better than I'll do on Party.

Ok, really havn't managed to come up with any great insights, but I'm away for the weekend so want to try to do a review of my month and 200nl especially before I go.

Graph first, 200nl starts around the 5k hands mark, so a bit over 7k hands of 200nl.

As mentioned, add in $833 genius promotion and I'm fairly sure $300 worth of welcome Bonus cleared and I made over $1k in poker and over $2k total profit. Intellectually I know I should be happy about that, but I'm just not that excited. I ran at 4bb/100 (2ptbb/100) over my 7.7k hands of 200nl. Just making profit at my first shot should make me happy, but I really hoped to do better. Maybe my expectations were a bit high after crushing 50nl and 100nl for the last few months. As graph shows I ran a bit swingy. 8 buyin downswing from around 6.8 - 10k hands, then almost 10 buyins up from there to 12k then dropped almost 6 buyins like a rock before small recovery.

I dont feel like there was much spew or monkey tilt in there. Not much felt like my C game, but I think there was way too much B game. Didnt seem like I was playing terrible, but it did feel like anything other than my best resulted in losing too much. Like I really need to be at my best to beat the game. Spent the last day or two trying to point the finger at exactly whats wrong with my game, but tbh havnt had any success. My best guess is that its a few small things that add up together.

I really need to work on my aggression. My best session was one I recorded (never published) where I ran 23/18 with almost 10% 3bet and I just felt like I played great, but on average at 200nl I ran 19/14 with 4.3% 3bet and kept avoiding pulling the trigger in spots. More raising IP, more 3betting, more cbetting and barrelling. Just more aggression over all. Not monkey laggy, but my 'B' game seems to be based around finding excuses not to be aggressive, and my 'A' game seems to be when I avoid making excuses and just play that way. Problem is I find it really hard to turn it around if that's how I'm playing.

I have a few balance (and non-balance) things I need to work on. I still tend to have 'standard' spots which I stick to even if specific circumstances should dictate alternate plays. I'm getting to them.

Overall it just feels like my game is close, but not quite there yet, however until I get it there I wont beat it. Really hoping my 2hr sweat with Renton (hopefully next week, didnt manage to catch up this week) will help me sort some stuff out watching him play in similar games.

I guess for now I just hope I do well enough to stick around at 200nl until it does all come together.

good job bj, keep it up

Played only my 2nd session for the month tonight. Felt I played well but lost an AK < AQ for a stack about 1/2 hr in to put me down and feeling shitty, stuck with it though and kept my head. Won a flip to make me feel better then hit some hands. Ended up winning almost 2 buyins and less than 1/2 a buyin down on EV so all in all not too bad.

Had my 2hr sweat/coaching session with Renton (from the SH forum digest offer) yesterday. Really interesting. I knew what I wanted to focus on (primarily preflop ranges and flop play as well as considering what I'd do in spots and taking note of differences), which I think helped focus me in. I got what I wanted out of it I think. Going to be changing some of my ranges around, tried it both sessions so far this month and just felt much more comfortable. Some interesting spots where my passive play would have made me small pots where his aggression paid off. Mainly stuff where he considers what his range looks like and how that could be affecting his opponents play. Really interesting stuff I need to work on more. Was an enjoyable session, he described a lot of his plays he thought were interesting rather than just wait for me to ask questions, and when I did ask questions he gave good thorough answers. We also just chatted about stuff poker related and non-poker. He's someone I've never really talked to before so that was cool getting to know him a bit and hearing about where he's at etc.

Still a bit too passive preflop, caught myself a few times losing med pots postflop where I get into bad spots I wouldnt have if I'd just 3bet preflop when I probably should have. My VPIP is looking better but my PFR is a bit low still. 3bet is actually decent but I think thats sample size, I know I missed at least 6 good spots in my last session.

Kinda tired, cant really think well enough to give good info. Month starting well with 2.5 buyins from first 900 hands. Feeling good about my game after taking around 4 days off to get away and then last day or so really think about things.

Oh yeah, one concept I wanted to put out there for comment. A common suggestion for improving your 6-max game is to play HU. I've done a little on and off, but not much. I'm feeling pretty comfortable with my 6max game atm, but I wonder if I should start playing some HU as kinda training. If I do, what are peoples thoughts on just going all to HU for a period of time/hands, or just play it occassionally on and off?

If you want to do a volume prop bet for HU let me know. I'd like to get some in myself.

How about easing yourself into headsup by starting tables . You can always bail on the table as it starts to fill and start a new one , of if you get some fish snap them up before the other regs pile in.

go to a low stakes site anyway, just play some. dont just switch 100% since RB is murder at low HU games.

just one tbl 50nl on FTP maybe

Ben, just caught up on last two pages of thread after being away from pokerz for most of July. Nice job at 200nl - keep it up. GL with new job stuff and balancing it with life and pokerz. And I hope you are successful adding fitness to your weight loss.

Wow, it's like a whole new BJ since you made mod!

Apparantly I like to spew money and fishy villains like to hit the fricken nuts when I have close to. Meh, I dont even wanna go into it. One bad bluff (I thought it was good but people I showed it to disagreed) for a stack, 2.5 buyins lost with trips and a straight to mega fish on paired boards, losing flips, losing 85%+ hands all in, losing a heap of 70%+ hands that werent all in but they hit on river.

Its not that I played particularly well, but there werent a heap of bad plays in there, I just didnt hit good hands, if I did either they hit better or they folded.

Still torn on some of those hands.
1 bad that I knew was bad at the time cost me between 120 and 160.
1 bad that I thought was good at the time cost me 200
1 flip bad for 200

Total costs of all those hands account for about $900 but if I'd folded when I should have I'd have saved over $500 of my nearly $1k loss.

Then theres just a whole bunch of $20-$50 type hands. Bluffs that got raised, draws that didnt hit, folding when obvious draws came in. On the other hand I didnt seem to get paid with my good hands at all. The old 'bluffs got called but value bets didnt' trick.

Still not sure how much of the 2nd $500 was run bad and how much was play bad. Nothing like a big loss to ruin confidence.

Bit mixed up on what I want to do for the rest of the month. I really wont have much time to play this month. I'm done clearing my welcome Bonus. Not sure its worth trying to reach Palladium this quarter. Tossing up between sticking at the 200nl and trying to sort myself out, or spending the rest of the month without playing any 200nl 6-max. Tempted to dedicate what time I have to playing HU for lower buyins, and learning omaha or something. Even dropping back to 25 or 50nl and playing a laggier style or something. I dunno, thoughts appreciated.

Played...wow nearly a 3hr session today (so much for work :p).

Dropped pretty quickly to 1.5 buyins down, ran even for a bit then dropped a few more down to -700 down, came back at the end to finish nearly even. Felt like I ran so bad, but definately some bad calls in there. Like villains hitting 10% chances on rivers but I'd still call even though that was likely they're holding. Maybe a bit of FPS in there. I dunno, read some stuff in recent hands in SH forum about lines being super strong in some places and therefore not optimal so I play them slower, but seemed like every time I did either villains caught up or a card hit to kill my action.

One improvement was my biggest loss was $125, although in another sense that means I lost over $700 at one point there without being stacked. Think it was mainly runbad. Calling stations catching up, people who fold a lot always hitting v's me, stuff like that.

Meh, I dunno, I'm finding it really hard to objectively decide how much is me playing bad and how much is just running bad. I tried to record this session but forgot I was doing it and left the recorder going for 3.5 hrs so just cancelled it. Maybe another one later.

Halfway through a vid from Giggy where he's advocating learning LAG style when you start poker. 2 main reasons, 1 you'll make a lot of mistakes but you learn from your mistakes, and 2 its easier for a LAG to tighten up as an adjustment than it is for a TAG to loosen up (hit home with me). I'm tempted to drop back to 50nl and try to work on that for a while then work my way back up.

After today I've gotten through 2.5k hands this week so far. I really only expected to play maybe 5-8k hands total this month, so maybe I'll do better than I thought volume wise. Then again, I cant imagine slacking off and playing too many more 3hr sessions going forward.

I've done the same recently, dropping back to 50 to work on playing laggier postflop mainly. My preflop game has always been like 22/18 or 20/16 so that seems fine, but just looking for spots postflop and trying some stuff seems cheaper/easier to do at 50 and experimenting a bit with different lines I wouldnt want to do at 200 or even 100.

I think it has had some benefits, but I also think the stuff that works at 50 might not work at 200 which is basically where we want to play.

Anyway, I think what's important is don't play the same limit every time because you feel it's what you should play. When you've hit a rough patch just play some 100 which you know you can beat. Think you want to try some things play some 50 or 100. Feeling great and some good tables available play some 200 or perhaps even 400 if the roll allows it.

Since I´m back I stopped experimenting with all that laggishness and opening it up and stuff. I have never felt so comfortable the last 100k hands, running 22/19ish, not 4b bluffing, not doing weird balancing stuff and not playing anything weird or talking myself into hero calls "cuz he´s repping so thin" or "cuz Im so exploitable and he knows it". 50nl players make enough mistakes anyway, most 100nl players do as well. The "competent" 100nl and 200nl people perceive any other reg to be a bit like the cool guys in the videos and most poor 28/25 people are exploited best by being super solid when they perceive us to be something else.

Id open up one day when I feel like theres good money left at the tables by not doing so and when I know Im ready for it. Not because someone said it´s cool to do so, Im rather exploiting those who mis-apply videotheory. Until then I enjoy the beauty of super solid ABC taggishness and feel good about exploiting bad LAGs and particularly being super solid when Im percieved to be something else. Dont forget that Giggy mentions, how he´s mainly trying to give the impression of being LAGish, while hes essentially a big pot nit.

I think a big mistake people make when trying to LAG it up is by opening all sorts of hands all over the place to get their vpip/pfr up to like 29/25 or something like that.

I think you're better off opening a TONNNN on button/CO and still keeping UTG and UTG+1 pretty tight though.

I'm the poster child for playing "bad lag" like XTR and Grif said, trying to be one of the cool kids (hey ISF and nutsinho do it!!) and opening hands I shouldn't in positions I shouldn't. And barely breaking even for 25k hands. I'm kinda where XTR is: I'll play super solid TAGG and profit.

Yeah, definately Giggy is talking about taking lots of stabs in small pots and being a nit in disguise in the big ones. Question is how well that translates. I just know that v's other TAG regs I play pretty straightfoward and have trouble opening up or exploiting them. Its not that I dont make moves, but I dunno, it feels like I have a few tools rather than a whole toolshed. I definately get uncomfortable trying to increase my ranges and being stabby.

being one of 5 Taggs at a table fighting over 60BB stacks of the lone fish is a lot tougher than learning to Lagg it up a bit and steal a ton while they wait to get the fishy's money. Being a laggier player (according to Giggy and Samo) allows you to change gears more comfortably by switching to Tagg as they adjust to your steals and 3bets than it is for a Tagg to switch gears and start playing big pots lightly.

I ran at like 2ptbb/100 at 50NL 6m
then I learned HU and how to rape nits and I started running at 5ptbb/100 at 50NL 6m and continued at that pace at 100NL 6m

50NL/100NL regs have massive leaks in their games
one guy would play the same tight range vs. 3bs no matter how high my 3b got and then he would c/f flops that he missed, so I 3b him ATC and cbet every flop (yes I would 3b him 100% of the time)
another guy would just hero call me all fucking day so I started going for three streets of value with TPNK

these are adjustments that are on the "laggy" side I guess, but they're good adjustments against the people I am playing with
and I would suspect that playing this way really reveals the weakness of your opponents' because they don't know how to deal with someone who is pushing them around, they either play too nit or start calling too much

I can see where jyms/giggy/iopq are coming from, but I'm at a point in my game where I've got a huge postflop edge against LAGGs and TAGGs whenever I can stay aggressive and attack wide/weak ranges or nittiness. I'm better with a 6m VPiP ~ 20 and more 3b/4b than playing a 28/21 style. And I don't think it's mega exploitable (iopq may disagree?). I also agree with XTR that most 100nl regs suck postflop regardless of preflop stats. If I play too loose pre, I lose my postflop edge.

Wouldn't mind improving my game so that last sentence wasn't true. Razz

Robb: your style is not exploitable, but to be exploiting the other regs you have to have an exploitive style. So in fact when I'm running 28/21 I'm trying to exploit regs that don't defend their blinds enough, regs that cbet once and fold to raises too much, etc.
btw my 3b is 7.5%

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Operation: Ben learns poker and builds a roll

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