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Posted: Sun, 21 Jan 2007, 5:51pm Post subject: NLHE T&P - Week 3 Discussion p. 58-74 |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 3115
WPP: 82
Location: calling
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This is a short section, with some concepts that aren't always applicable to low-stakes games b/c players aren't capable of laying down hands. Still, I think it offers some good advice.
1. Do you pay attention to how much $ you leave behind when bet sizing? How about how much your opponent leaves behind? Why should you do both?
2. Great quote from p. 61:
| Quote: | | You don't bluff to get your opponent fold. You bluff to get your opponent to fold if she has a specific hand (or a specific range of hands). |
Since this is a short section, feel free to post hand histories where you thought about bluff sizing or didn't think enough. Also, please bump discussions from previous weeks if you have more to add. |
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Posted: Mon, 22 Jan 2007, 11:05am Post subject: |
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Administrator
Joined: 04 Dec 2003
Posts: 1735
WPP: 218
Location: on my laptop
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1. Do you pay attention to how much $ you leave behind when bet sizing? How about how much your opponent leaves behind? Why should you do both?
Yes. Leaving enough behind for threats on future streets can intimidate non-fish players. I also watch the stacks of my opponents although this is easier online than in brick and mortar settings. |
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Posted: Mon, 22 Jan 2007, 1:31pm Post subject: |
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 100
WPP: 60
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Great thought by Sklansky which is called "the hammer of future bets". You should have something in your stack when you are bluffing because opponent predicts in his fear that he will face another big bet on the next street so having big stack is a good intimidation factor. I find myself not respecting shortstacks and calling them more often with marginal holdings because they can't cripple me so much. Shortstacks can't bluff effectively.
Having big stack in a tournament is a great bluffing opportunity because of this hammer of future bets. People know, that if they call you, they better have something good because they will almost certainly be facing an all in bet on next street. This is why big stacks can bully the table. They leave something behind.
If opponent with a big stack bets, I am not so likely to raise because I can't push him off. If I just call, he might attack at the next street. Against a shortstack, I am not so scared. |
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Posted: Thu, 25 Jan 2007, 10:09am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 3115
WPP: 82
Location: calling
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A bluff-sizing decision from a session last night...
Villain is not very good. Loose passive pre-flop, seems passive post-flop but has folded to aggression. I think his 65BB stack makes this an interesting decision. Thoughts?
Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Holdem Ring game - Blinds: $1/$2 - 9 players - Converter
Stack sizes:
UTG: $169.95
UTG+1: $251.10
Hero: $193
MP2: $155
MP3: $194.50
CO: $249.75
Button: $52.80
SB: $131.65
BB: $196
Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP1 with 6 6
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to $10, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls.
Flop: 4 T 7 ($42, 4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $30, MP3 folds, SB calls, UTG folds.
Turn: 4 ($102, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero... |
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Posted: Thu, 25 Jan 2007, 1:22pm Post subject: |
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 100
WPP: 60
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| against loose passive guy, I would check behind turn |
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Posted: Thu, 25 Jan 2007, 5:31pm Post subject: |
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Full House
Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 918
WPP: 101
Location: My 80's crush
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| I also think this reinforces how important postflop play is in reraised pots, especially with 100BB effective stacks or less. A flop bet or flop raise if done incorrectly can commit you to a pot or commit your opponent. It can also allow an opponent with a shorter stack to play correctly when he is drawing. |
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Posted: Thu, 25 Jan 2007, 7:08pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 3115
WPP: 82
Location: calling
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| cardsman1992 wrote: | | I also think this reinforces how important postflop play is in reraised pots, especially with 100BB effective stacks or less. A flop bet or flop raise if done incorrectly can commit you to a pot or commit your opponent. It can also allow an opponent with a shorter stack to play correctly when he is drawing. |
But the more money that goes in pre-flop, the easier post-flop decisions become. |
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Posted: Fri, 26 Jan 2007, 11:15am Post subject: |
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 100
WPP: 60
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this is true and it is the reason it is easier to play as the shortstack. You got just two options: all in or fold.
Better players use full stack to maximize their EV even though it is likely that they will face some tough decisions.
What are you actually trying to say with your line, zook? |
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Posted: Fri, 26 Jan 2007, 4:26pm Post subject: |
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High Card
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 7
WPP: 195
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| Quote: | | Do you pay attention to how much $ you leave behind when bet sizing? |
Below is a hand history from a $5+0.50 SNG.
CO has limp/folded from all positions.
Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t25/t50
6 players
Converter
Stack sizes:
UTG: t1735
UTG+1: t2265
CO: t835
Hero: t1195
SB: t4230
BB: t3240
Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with A J
2 folds, CO calls t50, Hero raises to t200, SB folds, BB calls t150, CO folds.
Flop: 4 4 9 (t475, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero ???
Here I have a possible multi-street bluff opportunity (flop/turn instead of turn/river like in T&P). After my pre-flop raise, I have t995 chips left. A 1/2 pot-sized c-bet is about 1/4 of my stack (leaving ~t750 behind). If villain calls, the pot will be ~t950. This leaves me with a 3/4 pot-sized all-in turn bluff.
A 2/3 pot-sized c-bet is about 1/3 of my stack (I'd much rather push).
| Quote: | | p. 71: For all bet sizes that are only a small fraction of the size of the pot, your opponents will fold roughly the same number of hands... For all bet sizes much larger than the size of the pot, your opponents will also fold roughly the same number of hands: almost everything except the nuts and perhaps a couple of other extremely strong hands. |
My question is if I get check-raised on the flop by the BB with say a small PP or a 9, am I better off pushing the flop to see all the cards (and possibly increasing fold equity with ~2x pot-sized push)? |
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Posted: Fri, 26 Jan 2007, 5:21pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 3115
WPP: 82
Location: calling
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| Dave Davis wrote: | | What are you actually trying to say with your line, zook? |
I was just trying to give another perspective on what cardsman wrote. Post-flop play in a re-raised pot is important because the bet sizes are much larger and there's more money at stake, but it's also usually simpler than deep stacked post-flop play b/c there are fewer options.
lightningfast: I like a 1/2 pot c-bet too. If c/r'ed, I fold. I don't think you have any fold equity in that situation, when he'll be getting ~2:1 pot odds. |
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Posted: Fri, 26 Jan 2007, 7:10pm Post subject: |
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High Card
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 7
WPP: 195
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| zook wrote: | | lightningfast: I like a 1/2 pot c-bet too. If c/r'ed, I fold. I don't think you have any fold equity in that situation, when he'll be getting ~2:1 pot odds. |
I meant if I push after his flop check, he'll be getting about 1.4:1 (1470:995). |
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Posted: Fri, 26 Jan 2007, 8:10pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 3115
WPP: 82
Location: calling
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| What's your question then? |
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Posted: Fri, 26 Jan 2007, 9:23pm Post subject: |
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High Card
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 7
WPP: 195
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| Should I push on the flop or use the multi-street bluff like in T&P? |
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Posted: Thu, 01 Feb 2007, 3:03am Post subject: |
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Life Donk
Joined: 29 Aug 2005
Posts: 1684
WPP: 89
Location: Having a J. Arthur
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This chapter really opened my mind to how important aggressive play in the right spot is. Before reading this, I used to feel "bad" when my blind steals didn't work. Now I hope the blinds call so that I can take away a bigger pot on the flop with a c-bet, because chances are none of us hit the flop. And further, when my cbet gets called I see it as an opportunity to take away an even bigger pot on the turn. Of course this is easy to overdo, so hand reading becomes very important.
One of my problems with regards to bluffing both pre-and postflop is dealing with short stacks. Seeing as I can never hit them with "the hammer of future bets", my fold equity diminishes significantly. I don't know how many times I've put out a cbet on the flop only to be hit with a small c/r and had to fold. Or how many times I've had to fold to his flop push after trying a blind steal.
(I kinda lost track of where I was going with this post, lol.) |
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Posted: Thu, 01 Feb 2007, 4:05am Post subject: |
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 100
WPP: 60
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| Shortstacks are difficult to bluff. It seems they always checkraise me, sometimes even with air. I don't bluff them very often. I called a shortstacked checkraise with ace high one day and won. Otherwise, if you hit a top pair against a shortstack, don't c bet. They push almost all the time if you check - I am serious. |
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Posted: Thu, 01 Feb 2007, 12:22pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 3521
WPP: 60
Location: TAGfishery
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| Dave Davis wrote: | | Shortstacks are difficult to bluff. It seems they always checkraise me, sometimes even with air. I don't bluff them very often. I called a shortstacked checkraise with ace high one day and won. Otherwise, if you hit a top pair against a shortstack, don't c bet. They push almost all the time if you check - I am serious. |
this depends on the stakes and also your image at the table, and doesnt really apply as a blanket statement.
i do agree that its not profitable to bluff a short stack. |
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Posted: Fri, 02 Feb 2007, 3:31pm Post subject: |
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Straight
Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 247
WPP: 266
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| I almost always have aggressive image and at 25 NL even if I don't have it, I find they always think I am bluffing. |
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