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Posted: Sat, 09 Aug 2008, 3:53pm Post subject: live play prep thread..
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 3153
WPP: 144
Location: spreading fert
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here is a situation i will come across in live 3/6 games frequently. no reads as i just sat in. but, here is my thought process, correct it as necessary please.
obv call pf. c/c flop with 6 players, i dont want to raise against villains that likely dont fold for one more bet with such a vulnerable overpair. i also dont like the coordination of this board in a limped pot. must i c/r here anyway?
turn...i wanted to raise here, but thought it best to just play this hand WA/WB since i now have no idea where i stand. 67 isnt likely since i have to 7's. i feel that big overpairs arent likely, but smallish ones are. but, the majority here has to be overcards and flush draws. so, again i choose to call because i dont want him to check the river to me, since i am likely not folding it now.
river card is meh. if he drew out with the river, so be it. i felt if he was bluffing, he would continue.
are there blatant weaknesses in the way i played it? it just feels so weak.
0.05/0.1 Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
Hero ($1.70)
UTG+1 ($1.34)
MP1 ($3.72)
MP2 ($3.21)
MP3 ($2.70)
CO ($3.38)
BTN ($0.45)
SB ($1.32)
BB ($5.00)
Pre-flop: (1.4 SB, 9 players) Hero is UTG  
Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, BTN calls, 1 fold, BB checks
Flop:    (6.4 SB, 6 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, CO calls, 1 fold, BB folds, Hero calls, MP1 folds
Turn:  (4.7 BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, 1 fold, Hero calls
River:  (6.7 BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls |
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Posted: Sat, 09 Aug 2008, 6:27pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 03 Jul 2005
Posts: 1483
WPP: 79
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Looks weak too  I have no reason to think we are behind on the turn unless he is sitting on A2/A3/43/44/55.
I'd probably donk bet the turn and fold if raised. Allowing him a free river card can be disastrous with that board. And if he has two overcards he might well call anyways getting the wrong odds. |
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Posted: Sat, 09 Aug 2008, 8:05pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 2300
WPP: 57
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| raise flop, mp2 doesn't have a 3 or he'd try to slowplay |
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Posted: Sat, 09 Aug 2008, 9:22pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 3153
WPP: 144
Location: spreading fert
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| KoRnholio wrote: | Looks weak too I have no reason to think we are behind on the turn unless he is sitting on A2/A3/43/44/55.
I'd probably donk bet the turn and fold if raised. Allowing him a free river card can be disastrous with that board. And if he has two overcards he might well call anyways getting the wrong odds. |
i just never knew what to do here and was sort of looking for a reason to fold....and never got one. i didnt want to lead the turn with 3 players and didnt think a raise had any value in it. just crappy out of me, thats for sure. oh well. thanks, guys.
i guess i need to be more aggressive in these spots, but i see passive players go into "call down" mode when they should turn on the jets when i take over. i just felt this was the best way to play it when i felt like if i took over i dont get better to fold, but shut down worse that may be firing.
bleh |
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Posted: Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 2:53am Post subject:
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Straight
Joined: 08 Jun 2008
Posts: 150
WPP: 105
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LOL! I've played hundreds of thousands of these types of live multiway hands.
If this game is super passive, and will get checked thru, I'm leading flop. As you played this, I'm C/Ring every time. I can't give credit to original bettor, although the LP smooth call would make me think twice... but still C/Ring.
As played, though... this turn card if perfect for a C/R. You've got overs, gutter, and trip outs.
You played this waaay too weak. Again, if I knew LP would fire flop, I'm C/Ring every single time. If I fear check thru, I'm taking flop lead!
I've been reading a lot of posts here, and other forums, where everyone is soo afraid of the boogey-man. Take control of these types of pots, and make them fear YOU! |
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Posted: Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 3:29am Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 769
WPP: 151
Location: Moscow, Idaho
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Limping UTG in a live play $3/6 game with a low PP is suicide.
The reason? Every other hand at 3/6 there is a raiser. The game is RARELY ever passive enough.
As played a check raise on the flop would thin the field, to 3 up or heads up. And a bet on the turn is going to let you know exactly where you stand.
You'll be able to release on the turn when you lead out and they pop you back. If they call, the jack is a check and depending on the player call or fold. The more likely he is to try to steal, the more likely you should call. If he's a rock, you fold. |
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Posted: Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 12:27pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 3153
WPP: 144
Location: spreading fert
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| socal1111 wrote: | | I've been reading a lot of posts here, and other forums, where everyone is soo afraid of the boogey-man. Take control of these types of pots, and make them fear YOU! |
i understand your point, but can you give some examples where we shouldnt be...mathematically?
seems we get told, with hands like these, that we overplayed them when we get called. we get told, "well, what better hand folds?" and, "what is worse that calls?" and, who wants to overplay such a vulnerable hand anyway?
is there either a debate we can start, or a passage to a book you can point me to, that would fill in what i am obviously missing? this is a classic example, imo, where i miss a good deal of value in LHE. and, to get better for 2/4+, i feel i need to be almost flawless here to scoop the BB's i will so desperately need. |
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Posted: Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 12:57pm Post subject:
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Straight
Joined: 08 Jun 2008
Posts: 150
WPP: 105
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| Ragnar4 wrote: | Limping UTG in a live play $3/6 game with a low PP is suicide.
The reason? Every other hand at 3/6 there is a raiser. The game is RARELY ever passive enough.
As played a check raise on the flop would thin the field, to 3 up or heads up. And a bet on the turn is going to let you know exactly where you stand.
You'll be able to release on the turn when you lead out and they pop you back. If they call, the jack is a check and depending on the player call or fold. The more likely he is to try to steal, the more likely you should call. If he's a rock, you fold. |
WHAAAATTTT!!!!!!??????
Limping UTG in these games is EXACTLY what you should be doing! These live $3/6 games are NOT aggressive, and will be limped w/ AJ, AQ, even AK quite often. I play in live mid-limit games where I still hear, "I never win w/ AK. It's just a drawing hand. I'm never raising w/ it again."
In these loose, live games... LIMP EVERY TIME W/ 77 UTG... unless you hate chips. |
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Posted: Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 1:12pm Post subject:
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Straight
Joined: 08 Jun 2008
Posts: 150
WPP: 105
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| Chopper wrote: | | socal1111 wrote: | | I've been reading a lot of posts here, and other forums, where everyone is soo afraid of the boogey-man. Take control of these types of pots, and make them fear YOU! |
i understand your point, but can you give some examples where we shouldnt be...mathematically?
seems we get told, with hands like these, that we overplayed them when we get called. we get told, "well, what better hand folds?" and, "what is worse that calls?" and, who wants to overplay such a vulnerable hand anyway?
is there either a debate we can start, or a passage to a book you can point me to, that would fill in what i am obviously missing? this is a classic example, imo, where i miss a good deal of value in LHE. and, to get better for 2/4+, i feel i need to be almost flawless here to scoop the BB's i will so desperately need. |
The best book I've read, which deals w/ these loose live games, is Ed Miller SSHE. Read it over and over.
I agree w/ you that so many responses to questions here are WA/WB, which is true sometimes, but... is used as a crutch too often. In poker, you're either ahead or behind, but that shouldn't always make us go into passive, calling station mode.
Scared, passive play is the worst thing we can do in the long-term. Sure, letting the LAG do the betting for us sometimes is a gr8 play... but this hand wasn't that time. You wern't c/cing to LAG, you just didn't know WHAT to do. We've all heard, "if it's worth a call, then raise!" These spots scream raise, even if you ARE beat. Raising here will make overs pay to peel... and you'll quickly find out where you are.
In these live games (w/ these paired boards), the original caller will very often spring into action after you C/R the flop, and 3-bet - BINGO... there's your trips hand.
Read SSHE. He explains how to make these loose live games a gold mine - THRU AGGRESSIVE PLAY! |
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Posted: Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 5:18pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 3153
WPP: 144
Location: spreading fert
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| socal1111 wrote: | | Chopper wrote: | | socal1111 wrote: | | I've been reading a lot of posts here, and other forums, where everyone is soo afraid of the boogey-man. Take control of these types of pots, and make them fear YOU! |
i understand your point, but can you give some examples where we shouldnt be...mathematically?
seems we get told, with hands like these, that we overplayed them when we get called. we get told, "well, what better hand folds?" and, "what is worse that calls?" and, who wants to overplay such a vulnerable hand anyway?
is there either a debate we can start, or a passage to a book you can point me to, that would fill in what i am obviously missing? this is a classic example, imo, where i miss a good deal of value in LHE. and, to get better for 2/4+, i feel i need to be almost flawless here to scoop the BB's i will so desperately need. |
The best book I've read, which deals w/ these loose live games, is Ed Miller SSHE. Read it over and over.
I agree w/ you that so many responses to questions here are WA/WB, which is true sometimes, but... is used as a crutch too often. In poker, you're either ahead or behind, but that shouldn't always make us go into passive, calling station mode.
Scared, passive play is the worst thing we can do in the long-term. Sure, letting the LAG do the betting for us sometimes is a gr8 play... but this hand wasn't that time. You wern't c/cing to LAG, you just didn't know WHAT to do. We've all heard, "if it's worth a call, then raise!" These spots scream raise, even if you ARE beat. Raising here will make overs pay to peel... and you'll quickly find out where you are.
In these live games (w/ these paired boards), the original caller will very often spring into action after you C/R the flop, and 3-bet - BINGO... there's your trips hand.
Read SSHE. He explains how to make these loose live games a gold mine - THRU AGGRESSIVE PLAY! |
thank you. |
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Posted: Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 7:01pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 769
WPP: 151
Location: Moscow, Idaho
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| socal1111 wrote: | | Ragnar4 wrote: | Limping UTG in a live play $3/6 game with a low PP is suicide.
The reason? Every other hand at 3/6 there is a raiser. The game is RARELY ever passive enough.
As played a check raise on the flop would thin the field, to 3 up or heads up. And a bet on the turn is going to let you know exactly where you stand.
You'll be able to release on the turn when you lead out and they pop you back. If they call, the jack is a check and depending on the player call or fold. The more likely he is to try to steal, the more likely you should call. If he's a rock, you fold. |
WHAAAATTTT!!!!!!??????
Limping UTG in these games is EXACTLY what you should be doing! These live $3/6 games are NOT aggressive, and will be limped w/ AJ, AQ, even AK quite often. I play in live mid-limit games where I still hear, "I never win w/ AK. It's just a drawing hand. I'm never raising w/ it again."
In these loose, live games... LIMP EVERY TIME W/ 77 UTG... unless you hate chips. |
I guess the play is game dependent. If players are letting you get to the flop for one small bet from UTG with a PP without a raise often, go ahead and limp.
remember you need to make 10X what you tossed on the table to hunt a set here.
If you're being raised, that 10x is VERY hard to make if you limp, a few people fold, then someone raises and the BB calls, and you call.. In fact I would venture to say it's impossible.
--Edit, I just pulled out SSH and did some reading. Charts on Page 80.
As long as it's an action game after the flop. As long as there's lots of action 77 is the very minimun you can play with 3-5 players to the flop...
But if the game is tight, and aggressive PF with a passive PF feel, ie 2 or 3 players to every flop for 2 bets, followed by being a calling station to the river where they fold if they miss and bet if they hit ( the $3/6 game I play in) Then 77 is worthess utg. |
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Posted: Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 10:20pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 3153
WPP: 144
Location: spreading fert
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| Ragnar4 wrote: | | --Edit, I just pulled out SSH and did some reading. Charts on Page 80. As long as it's an action game after the flop. As long as there's lots of action 77 is the very minimun you can play with 3-5 players to the flop... |
lol. hence the very reason i limped it. but, if i see a flop % >50, i limp 66, too. its a bit sac religious to open limp from UTG, but if Miller says so, who am i to dispute?
thing is...in MY live games, even if there is a raise, i have players going WAY too far and not folding. i see showdowns with 3-4 people in them routinely. a 15bb pot is nothing in these games. so much so, i will open limp/call a raise with AXs from any of the first 4-5 spots. i will limp sc's down to 78s from anywhere but UTG and UTG1, but 9Ts from anywhere. with AXs and sc's, i WANT a raise behind me somewhere. it helps me jam the flops i like. using his theories, you have to be very selective when playing this weak from this early. you have to be playing great flops only and folding a ton of "good looking" flops that you KNOW you cant do anything with in terms of protection because the they all call one or two bets about the same. bottom line is that in these games, a one pair hand isnt likely best by the river and these guys wont drop to standard signals of protection or by taking away their odds. therefore, if you have A6s UTG and limp/call, you cant do shit when the A flops w/o your suit and there's a bet and 3 callers after you check. but if you lead, no one with even mid pair, or AJ, will raise behind you. so, you kind of have to play your 5 outer and c/f a lot of turns.
this is all based on Miller's charts in SSHE. most times i am between the charts. not quite 3-5, but not quite 6-8.
the major difference between the games described in SSHE and the ubermicro stakes online is that online is still more aggro most times except at the very lowest levels....which is why you will see me prep for live play at 5/10c and below. 10/20c on stars is too aggro for using the whole of Miller's charts, imo, and its hard to play Miller's weaker portions post flop because the games are a bit more aggro there, too. very crushable, just a bit more aggro for the wicked loose games he describes. |
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Posted: Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 10:41pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 769
WPP: 151
Location: Moscow, Idaho
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| Good god Chopper, I wish I could play at your 3/6 live game.. mine was waaay tight aggro. Only ever 2 fish at any table.. and no better games anywhere near. |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Aug 2008, 12:13am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 3153
WPP: 144
Location: spreading fert
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| Ragnar4 wrote: | | Good god Chopper, I wish I could play at your 3/6 live game.. mine was waaay tight aggro. Only ever 2 fish at any table.. and no better games anywhere near. |
come to St Louis. our "boats" are full of them. |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Aug 2008, 2:47am Post subject:
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Straight
Joined: 08 Jun 2008
Posts: 150
WPP: 105
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| Ragnar4 wrote: | | Good god Chopper, I wish I could play at your 3/6 live game.. mine was waaay tight aggro. Only ever 2 fish at any table.. and no better games anywhere near. |
LOL! I was about to ask where the heck you play if you're describing a tight 3/6 game.
Living in SoCal, all I see is: loose/action/fast/more action... uhhh... oh yeah... looser/faster/even more action!
Limping Axs utg is standard in the above games. Commerce's $9/18 game is the sickest / juiciest game under $20/40. It actually plays bigger than the 20/40 most times. 7 way capped prefop is routine!!!!! |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Aug 2008, 4:57am Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17644
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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In the hand given I would bet the flop and just gas it. As played I think it's fine. You can't isolate the flop with a raise.
| socal1111 wrote: |
Limping Axs utg is standard in the above games. Commerce's $9/18 game is the sickest / juiciest game under $20/40. It actually plays bigger than the 20/40 most times. 7 way capped prefop is routine!!!!! |
Wow, I guess the 9/18 got better since I played it. The Hawaiian Garden 8/16 half kill is an amazing game with a smaller drop. Kill pots change the dynamic of the game so good.
If you can afford to play either game, you're far better off playing $5/$5 or $5/$10 NLHE though. The play is sooo terrible and you can exploit the shit out of people who leak too much information in ways you just can't do in limit poker. |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Aug 2008, 4:47pm Post subject: 3 new hands for line checks..
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Posts: 3153
WPP: 144
Location: spreading fert
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one...i need to work with pstove more. should i 3bet this flop? i may get a free turn out of it if i do.
0.05/0.1 Limit Holdem
10 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG ($1.81)
UTG+1 ($1.97)
UTG+2 ($0.10)
MP1 ($1.32)
Hero ($1.95)
MP3 ($3.57)
CO ($8.03)
BTN ($2.50)
SB ($1.99)
BB ($0.33)
Pre-flop: (1.4 SB, 10 players) Hero is MP2  
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 2 folds, BB checks
Flop:   (6.4 SB, 6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, 1 fold, CO raises, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls
Turn:  (6.2 BB, 3 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, MP1 folds, Hero calls
River:  (8.2 BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero raises, CO calls
two..i was really hoping for AK here on the turn, and the possibility spooked me on the river. i wanted to 3bet, but i was afraid a cap meant i was overboated. was this correct to b/c river?
0.05/0.1 Limit Holdem
10 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG ($4.33)
Hero ($3.13)
UTG+2 ($1.99)
MP1 ($1.26)
MP2 ($1.45)
MP3 ($4.03)
CO ($2.92)
BTN ($1.40)
SB ($1.56)
BB ($2.34)
Pre-flop: (1.4 SB, 10 players) Hero is UTG+1  
1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, BB checks
Flop:    (4.4 SB, 4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 raises, 1 fold, BB folds, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls
Turn:  (5.2 BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, Hero 4-bets, MP1 calls
River:  (13.2 BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero calls
three...this is a bit of a different line for me. i had an aggro on BTN and wanted to charge him the max if he was on a flush draw. the river fold surprised me. but, should i have checked the turn or river and let him bluff? somehow i felt he would have fired, but i thought he would possibly raise my lead on a bluff, too.
0.05/0.1 Limit Holdem
10 players
Converted at weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG ($1.82)
UTG+1 ($2.98)
Hero ($3.05)
MP1 ($5.58)
MP2 ($1.95)
MP3 ($0.83)
CO ($2.00)
BTN ($5.01)
SB ($0.36)
BB ($1.13)
[CO posted 0.05]
Pre-flop: (2.4 SB, 10 players) Hero is UTG+2 
2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP3 3-bets, CO calls, BTN calls, 2 folds, Hero 4-bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, BTN calls
Flop:    (17.4 SB, 4 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, BTN bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls, CO folds, BTN calls
Turn: (11.7 BB, 3 players)
Hero bets, MP3 calls, BTN calls
River:  (14.7 BB, 3 players)
Hero bets, 2 folds |
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Posted: Mon, 11 Aug 2008, 8:04pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 711
WPP: 135
Location: UK
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Hand in OP: I really want to c/r this turn card. Is that wrong?
As played, I consider a c/r on the river and fold to a 3bet. He will almost never turn over a J here. More likely he has a busted FD or A5/A4. 66/88/99 is also possible, but he can only 3bet you with a straight or better. He may fold 88/99 to the river c/r and if not well it only cost you one extra BB and you build a tricky image.
The last 3 hands:
1) Flop 3 bet is in order imo. You have 11 outs to TP or better with two opponents. MP already called two cold and will probably call a cap as well. Like you said, it may also give you the option to take a free card on the turn.
2) Who overlimps with AK? My best guess is he has 66 or maybe A6 or even A8. I probably lead/3bet the turn and b/c the river.
3) My standard play here is to lead the flop. However, I have been contemplating using the flop c/r with strong hands in these types of situations (early position, 4 or more way pot) but I haven't quite got my head around the precise times to do it vs. when to just lead out.
Here, it's not really a board that's going to hit many opponents, so I'm in favor of leading out. Someone with QJ might even raise and you can 3bet with a ton of equity.
If the flop were QT4 with two suited cards or some such I'd be more tempted to go for the c/r.
I like your value bet on the river. |
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