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Posted: Thu, 30 Mar 2006, 5:51pm Post subject: lagg or tagg? Whats better? |
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Straight Flush
Joined: 21 Jun 2005
Posts: 7653
WPP: 71
Location: Petra Marklund FTW ^^^^
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'A loose aggressive type player will always be able to extract a higher bb/100 rate than a tight aggressive type player'
Discuss 
My personal thoughts.
1. Number of tables
2. Table image
3. Preflop action
4. Bluffability
5. Steals
etc
What are others thoughts on what should, theoretically be the better style? |
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Posted: Thu, 30 Mar 2006, 5:55pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 1602
WPP: 105
Location: Party 6 max
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I can't effectively play more than 3-4 tables.
That being said, I have a higher sustained BB/100 than any "TAgg" player I know of.
However, I have proven to myself that effective tight play decreases my BB/100 only slightly, and would allow me to play up to 8 tables effectively.
Therefore, I believe TAgg play is more profitable in the sense that you can play more hands on more tables in the same amount of time. |
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Posted: Thu, 30 Mar 2006, 5:58pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 3001
WPP: 92
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It totally depends on the table situation. Against totally unaware players ABC TAG will keep the highest BB/100.
How much you have to deviate from that, and in what way would totally depend on what games you played in.
e.g. in really loose passive games where counterplay rules, LAG would be horrible. |
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Posted: Thu, 30 Mar 2006, 6:00pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 1602
WPP: 105
Location: Party 6 max
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| Pelion wrote: | It totally depends on the table situation. Against totally unaware players ABC TAG will keep the highest BB/100.
How much you have to deviate from that, and in what way would totally depend on what games you played in.
e.g. in really loose passive games where counterplay rules, LAG would be horrible. |
This really only shows that you don't understand the entire concept of LAgg play.
Why, in a loose passive game where people play too many hands and go too far with them, would you think that it would be more profitable to play LESS hands than in a tough game? |
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Posted: Thu, 30 Mar 2006, 6:05pm Post subject: |
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Straight Flush
Joined: 21 Jun 2005
Posts: 7653
WPP: 71
Location: Petra Marklund FTW ^^^^
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nice start demi
I agree a taggy type player can play more tables.
reasons would generally be less hands, less reads needed to effectivly play in tagg mode.
The opposite would be true for a good lagg. Fewer tables because reads are more dependant, more concentration on tables because larger VP$IP or need to bet.
Saying that then, is tagg better?
My bb/100 is better in a laggy mode than tagg mode yet i cant play as many tables too. So does that make tight right? |
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Posted: Thu, 30 Mar 2006, 6:39pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 3001
WPP: 92
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| Demiparadigm wrote: | | Pelion wrote: | It totally depends on the table situation. Against totally unaware players ABC TAG will keep the highest BB/100.
How much you have to deviate from that, and in what way would totally depend on what games you played in.
e.g. in really loose passive games where counterplay rules, LAG would be horrible. |
This really only shows that you don't understand the entire concept of LAgg play.
Why, in a loose passive game where people play too many hands and go too far with them, would you think that it would be more profitable to play LESS hands than in a tough game? |
How very confrontational of you...
In a loose passive game where people play too many hands and go too far with them it would be more profitable to play more hands but to play them passivly until they hit.
Whats the point of raising KQo when you are going to be called by any A (THAT YOU ARE BEHIND), and you are going to be called by bottom pair after the flop so cbetting wont work.
Youve got the Loose part right, but I dont think you understand the situations where the AG is useful.
It is much better to play more hands passivly, and then start betting when you have hit the hand. That is actually a very tight postflop style since you are mostly betting 2 pair or better type hands, and arent getting too worked up over A high or TPTK.
So really you are Loose-Passive preflop and Tight-Aggressive postflop.
Aggressive before the flop, and loose after the flop destroys alot of the implied odds this type of player is desperate to give you, and you end up paying off some random 2 pair with your TPTK and then blaming luck or their horrible play when actually it was your style that failed to properly exploit the situation, and your style that gave them huge implied odds to play crap.
Maybe you dont understand the entire concept of counterplay |
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Posted: Thu, 30 Mar 2006, 6:54pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 1721
WPP: 136
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| I dont think there is a better or worse, it completely depends on the situation. If you can only play a few tables then lagg will be more profitable, it you want to massively multitable, tag is better for that. The higher in stakes you go the more lags you see, and these arent just the lags that like to bet, they are the lags that know what they are doing. So again, to find out which is the most profitable it all depends what and where you play, and more importantly, you yourself. In the end though there is not 'best", there is only what works for you. |
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Posted: Thu, 30 Mar 2006, 7:03pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 3001
WPP: 92
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The way I understand it, the TAG style is the ABC "optimum" way of playing according to sklansky's fundamental theorum. Of course you adjust your ranges so that, if someone is playing any A for top pair then you play A9 for top pair, whereas if he is only playing AJ+ for top pair you will need to play tighter, however the basic game plan is the same. Get money in when you are ahead. Call to draw when you are behind but have odds. Fold otherwise.
On the other hand the LAG style is basically designed to throw other people of their game, and force them to play out of their comfort zone. You allow yourself to make some small "mistakes" to try and force your opponent into making much larger mistakes.
If you agree on those definitions then it should be pretty obvious that TAG is supirior to LAG against opponents who will only consider their cards when making a decision, and will not be aware of your actions at all.
So what style is "better" depends entirely on the situation.
The question is similar to asking "which hand is better, AJo or 56s?" A whole lot of other things need to be considered before you can start to answer the question. |
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Posted: Thu, 30 Mar 2006, 7:03pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 2616
WPP: 84
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| Demiparadigm wrote: | This really only shows that you don't understand the entire concept of LAgg play.
Why, in a loose passive game where people play too many hands and go too far with them, would you think that it would be more profitable to play LESS hands than in a tough game? | I'm glad you posted this. The typical advise you always get here is "play tighter" but the last few days I've been thinking I actually make more if I play a bit looser and get into more pots, simply because these 10NL guys make so much against-the-odds bets.
Ofcourse when I go multi-table I'll become somewhat tighter, but now I'm sticking to one table b/c of BR issues and mainly for learning purposes, and this is the impression I got.. |
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Posted: Thu, 30 Mar 2006, 7:12pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 3001
WPP: 92
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| jackvance wrote: | | The typical advise you always get here is "play tighter" but the last few days I've been thinking I actually make more if I play a bit looser and get into more pots, simply because these 10NL guys make so much against-the-odds bets. |
One of the big reasons that beginners are advised to pay tight preflop is because it keeps them from having to make difficult decisions later on in the hand.
Cash games shouldnt be about avoiding marginal decisions, they should be about finding the right side of them. You want to be in more pots with poor players because you want to give them the most chance possible to donk off their chips to you. The question is how is this most explotable? I dont think you can lump all poor players together and say "play LAG against them and be rich". Poker players all have different styles, and poor poker players all have different styles too, For every different type of player you come up against there will be a different way to exploit them fully. You cant just say "LAG" is best, or"TAG" is best and claim that people who disagree "just dont understand". The correct answer, as usual, is "it depends". |
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Posted: Thu, 30 Mar 2006, 8:55pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 2616
WPP: 84
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| Pelion wrote: | | One of the big reasons that beginners are advised to pay tight preflop is because it keeps them from having to make difficult decisions later on in the hand. | Yeah, exactly. At first I'd have to wait wait wait for those good hands.. but after I did those flopread-exercices, and people read-exercices I put myself on, it's like I can better "see" the angles in which I am +EV. Not just because of the odds, but also because I calculate the hands my opponents could be at, and the chance they could be doing this or that play. In the past it used to be a frustrating experience to be faced with a sudden huge raise.. because all I could think was "how the hell should I know what he is holding here??"..
Now I am more capable of calmly assessing such situations. Let's say I put someone on 1/3 of having me beat and 2/3 of me having him beat, it's an easy call then. Compared to the old "standard fold", mixed up with the frustrated "ok now I'm calling!".. ofcourse usually at the wrong time. Quite a difference.
That is why playing too tight doesn't really suit me anymore, atleast that's the impression I get. Played 3 hours now, didn't get good starting hands at all, but I must say I had some luck, in the way I got my draws to cash out (not more than the odds would suggest, but at critical times) and in which my assessments of the situation seemed to come out positive most of the time. If I put someone at 1/3 of having me beat.. he might indeed have me beat and I'll lose money then. But in the long run, especially when my calculations sharpen, this will be a +EV strategy.
So yeah, played 3 hours, doubled my BR. No kidding. Feels good too. But I better take a break now.. while my game seems to be improving, I have no such confidence in my level-headedness lol  |
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Posted: Thu, 30 Mar 2006, 9:37pm Post subject: |
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Straight Flush
Joined: 21 Jun 2005
Posts: 7653
WPP: 71
Location: Petra Marklund FTW ^^^^
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| Quote: |
So what style is "better" depends entirely on the situation.
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Ok thats the thread title, i agree.
But im not asking whats better.
my post states that laggs should be able to extract a higher bb/100 (as useless a stat as that is)
what im asking you is
1. Why? (even, is that the truth)
2. How?
eg.
Axx flop after a preflop raise HU lagg vs tagg.
If lagg raised and tagg decides to move all in what do we put him on?
If on the other hand tagg raised preflop and lagg moves all in what do we put him on?
If both do this on any Axx flop who calls and loses more often? Does anybodys calling range increase because of table image.
Effectivly, does a laggy player play for stacks more often because he can push all in on any flop and get called by weaker holdings? |
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Posted: Thu, 30 Mar 2006, 11:33pm Post subject: |
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High Card
Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 11
WPP: 154
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Posted: Fri, 31 Mar 2006, 5:15am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 3001
WPP: 92
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| Miffed22001 wrote: |
my post states that laggs should be able to extract a higher bb/100 (as useless a stat as that is)
what im asking you is
1. Why? (even, is that the truth)
2. How?
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You are still asking a general question. I think you could get a higher BB/100 with a LAG style if you where playing against opponents who were all playing an abc, slightly aware TAG style. In other words, if you were playing against sethunters. I dont think LAG would get you the highest BB/100playing at a table full of calling stations. Try it though. Give 5k hands a go at the Paradise 2NL game. Really LAG it up and see what happens. I personally think you will get yourself into too many situations where you dont know where the hell you are, but test it out.
Against nutcampers, LAG works well because you pick up all the pots where none of you hit. You pick up alot of small pots to balence your blinds, but the way you do it makes your semi-aware opponent devalue your range (see rondavus range odds post). Thats all fine. The problem is they devalue your range too much, and dont realise it is a situational range that doesnt apply when they are actually fighting back so they end up going to war with A high. I think its these big pots where people decide to take a stand that make up for a big chunk of your profit. Against good players it also helps that they cant tell the difference between your drawsx and your made hands if you semibluff alot, so they may fold the best hand to your draw, but call/reraise with a pair when you have a set. They are also more likely to call bets when you hit your draw than if you just check/called.
But for all of this to have any effect you need to be against at least semi-aware opponents. If you are against opponents who will always call with middle pair+ and always fold when 3 to a flush come down then there is no point mixing it up like this. You are foolish to bet a draw, against a calling station but you are also foolish to not bet TPGK all the way to the river (for moderate sized bets). |
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Posted: Fri, 31 Mar 2006, 5:32am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 3001
WPP: 92
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| Black Panther wrote: | | What is Counterplay? |
Counterplay is one of Aok's strategys. I cant be bothered to find the post right now but its basically for beating very loose-passive full ring games that are filled with calling stations.
He basically says "If they are going to call you down with anything they have connected with e.g. bottom/middle pair +, and they are going to call big bets on the turn and river in small pots then it is better to wait to see if you will make your hand before you bet".
You start with the same sorts of hands as the TAG style.
You play all pocket pairs, AK-AT, KQ-KJ, suited and unsuited connectors 45+ and you play Axs.
There are 2 groups of hands.
Group 1
AA and KK.
Limp preflop from any position, if it is raised behind you then reraise to isolate. If the pot gets big then just push.
Group 2.
Preflop raises are going to be very rare at this table. If there are alot of preflop raises then you shouldnt be using counterplay.
QQ-22, AK, AQs
Limp from any position and call a moderate preflop raise.
AQo-AT, KQ-KJ, 45+,46+, Axs
Limp from any position. Fold to a moderate raise. Be more willing to call small raises (when pot odds are large) with suited connectors, suited Aces. Dont call raises with Big offsuit Broadways.
If raises are slightly common then only play these in later positions.
Postflop Play
check/call with anything worth playing that is less than top 2 pair (e.g. draws with good odds, TPTK).
Bet/Raise with top 2 pair or better
That is all.
I probably made a few mistakes in there but I dont think its too far off.
The theory is that if they are going to try to draw out on you what ever you bet, but they are going to call you even if they dont, then you are better off seeing if the turn is safe before you bet, but then making a nice big bet on the turn that they will call anyway. |
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Posted: Fri, 31 Mar 2006, 6:49am Post subject: |
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Straight
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 186
WPP: 66
Location: Sweden
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If I play lagg or tagg, it depends on the players at the table. I guess you might call it counter play.
Alsow, what you see as lagg play? and are we talking full ring or 6 max?
Axx flop after a preflop raise HU lagg vs tagg.
If lagg raised and tagg decides to move all in what do we put him on? - Reads*100.. what is his range to push with?
If on the other hand tagg raised preflop and lagg moves all in what do we put him on? - Why is a tagg pushing vs a lagg?
If both do this on any Axx flop who calls and loses more often? - Realy dont see the point of this question.
Does anybodys calling range increase because of table image. - Depends on the player.
Generaly, a good lagg will have higher bb/100 but alsow higher variance, but it all depends. |
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Posted: Fri, 31 Mar 2006, 6:54am Post subject: |
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 17391
WPP: 82
Location: Walk the Walk, Flop the Flop.
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Why are you guys so binary about this?
Play pretty tight, then start picking spots. As you get better and pay more attention, you find more spots. |
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Posted: Fri, 31 Mar 2006, 7:00am Post subject: |
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Full House
Joined: 15 Mar 2005
Posts: 1109
WPP: 137
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| Fnord wrote: | Why are you guys so binary about this?
Play pretty tight, then start picking spots. As you get better and pay more attention, you find more spots. |
Amen brother |
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Posted: Fri, 31 Mar 2006, 7:21am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 3001
WPP: 92
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| Fnord wrote: | Why are you guys so binary about this?
Play pretty tight, then start picking spots. As you get better and pay more attention, you find more spots. |
Thats pretty much what im trying to do now. Im finding a fair few spots at the moment. Also when I first join a table I usually play 19 hand poker (+ limping Axs and SCs in late position with a few limpers).
I usually start to loosen up after Ive been playing for a while and have a few notes on what im likely to be called with, and who calls cbets etc. |
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Posted: Fri, 31 Mar 2006, 7:36am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 22 Apr 2005
Posts: 3173
WPP: 88
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
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Fnord OTM. Miffed, it kind of sounds like you've decided LAgg is The Way and you want your view vindicated. But how anyone can say poker is definitely ANYTHING is beyond me.
(one thing I do know is that when I play LAgg, I lose ALL my money ALL the time. So maybe I'm just as biased )
an afterthought - can someone describe to me what happens at a table that's filled with LAggs? Does it result in annihilation? |
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Posted: Fri, 31 Mar 2006, 7:52am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 3001
WPP: 92
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| biondino wrote: | | can someone describe to me what happens at a table that's filled with LAggs? Does it result in annihilation? |
It results in a WSOP final table. |
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