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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 11:41am Post subject: KK vs fish. Meh flop. Ugh turn. And OOP.
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 3188
WPP: 95
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Villain is 48/13/2 fish, as are most of the other players at the table. This turn hits his range really hard, but hes passive enough that im not too worried about being bluffed. My thoughts at the time were that a bet pretty much splits his range into hands that beat me (raise) and hands that im ahead of (call), and I still think I have pretty good equity against his range. Pokerstove gives me 43% against what I believe to be a fair turn calling range (or continuing range) [Ill link it at the bottom for anyone interested]. He could also have some low PPs or maybe even like AJ that he floats/peels once and folds to the turn, maybe even like a KQ that he peels one and calls the turn. Anyway, the hand.
Just a quick note on the cbet size. For some reason I thought 2/3 pot was $2. Id usually bet $3 here for a nice round 3/4.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Hero (SB) ($35.40)
BB ($23.10)
UTG ($41.65)
MP ($13.95)
CO ($5.85)
Button ($5)
Preflop: Hero is SB with K , K
2 folds, CO calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero bets $1.25, BB calls $1, CO calls $1
Flop: ($3.75) 9 , 8 , 9 (3 players)
Hero bets $2, BB calls $2, 1 fold
Turn: ($7.75) 10 (2 players)
Hero bet/folds $4.50? (And probably c/fs diamond rivers)
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.949% 42.95% 00.00% 3326 0.00 { KcKh }
Hand 1: 57.051% 57.05% 00.00% 4418 0.00 { JJ-77, AdQd, AdJd, AdTd, A9s-A8s, Ad7d, Ad6d, Ad5d, Ad4d, Ad3d, Ad2d, KdQd, KdJd, KdTd, K9s, Kd8d, Q9s+, J8s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, 6d5d, 5d4d, A9o, K9o, Q9o+, J8o+, T8o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o } |
Last edited by Pelion on Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 12:14pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 11:57am Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4170
WPP: 77
Location: Dublin
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| bets fine but based on this post and your last thread u gotta be betting larger. |
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 11:58am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 3188
WPP: 95
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| Da GOAT wrote: | | bets fine but based on this post and your last thread u gotta be betting larger. |
larger than $4.50? |
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 12:36pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 29 Nov 2007
Posts: 760
WPP: 65
Location: Disturbia
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| Like 3.25 on the flop then like $8 on the turn. |
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 12:52pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 3188
WPP: 95
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| ok for some reason I totally decided to disregard cents in this hand. My thoughts were $2 into $3 on the flop, then $4.50 into $7 on the turn. Oh well. Anyway apart from bet sizing, hows the line? We are probably going to be value b/f for like half pot on brick rivers and c/f a diamond/straight cards. |
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 12:54pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 29 Mar 2007
Posts: 1334
WPP: 83
Location: Deventer
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| Bet larger on both postflop streets being OOP and flush and straight draws on the board. |
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 12:59pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 1367
WPP: 90
Location: KC, MO
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| You can even go PSB on the flop with so many draws available. |
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 1:34pm Post subject:
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midstakes donk
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 2977
WPP: 43
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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| Silly String wrote: | | You can even go PSB on the flop with so many draws available. |
don't you want him to make a mistake? we have a clearly defined hand in a multiway pot on a paired board that hits our opponents ranges and we are out of position. i like the idea of maintaining the lead in this hand and even following through on any river that does not make 4 to a straight, but betting half to 3/5 pot on all streets seems like a great gameplan to compensate for the fact that we are lighting money on fire vs any thinking opponent by bombing the flop and turn for almost pot given how much stronger their range for putting in 3 or more bets is compared to ours on this board. |
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 1:56pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 29 Mar 2007
Posts: 1334
WPP: 83
Location: Deventer
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| nutsinho wrote: | | Silly String wrote: | | You can even go PSB on the flop with so many draws available. |
don't you want him to make a mistake? we have a clearly defined hand in a multiway pot on a paired board that hits our opponents ranges and we are out of position. i like the idea of maintaining the lead in this hand and even following through on any river that does not make 4 to a straight, but betting half to 3/5 pot on all streets seems like a great gameplan to compensate for the fact that we are lighting money on fire vs any thinking opponent by bombing the flop and turn for almost pot given how much stronger their range for putting in 3 or more bets is compared to ours on this board. | You're not afraid of light raises with small bets?
(fwiw my standard with any hand on this board would be like 2/3 to 3/4 psb) |
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 6:44pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 1023
WPP: 92
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| I'm in the bet bigger camp. Even though I know nuts says bet smaller. I think you get more value from potting flop potting turn then half potting river than trying to bet 2/3-3/5 pot on all streets. You'll get more river folds doing that, and these players are so reluctant to fold any kind of draw that I think you need to maximize value on flop and turn. |
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 9:49pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 1712
WPP: 58
Location: UK
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| nutsinho, your posts are fucking awesome |
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 11:36pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 1023
WPP: 92
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| nutsinho, 995r I agree with you, but 998dd? I just think it's a way diff spot... |
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Posted: Wed, 04 Nov 2009, 5:13am Post subject:
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midstakes donk
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 2977
WPP: 43
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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| Marshall28 wrote: | | nutsinho, 995r I agree with you, but 998dd? I just think it's a way diff spot... |
it is a different spot but the cost/benefit of blasting off out of position isnt much more attractive. plus im taking into account the turn card which gives him a lot more reasonable bluffcatchers vs smaller betsizing. |
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Posted: Wed, 04 Nov 2009, 3:48pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 1367
WPP: 90
Location: KC, MO
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RE: Bet sizing?
I see your point Nuts, but I thought we attempt to size our cbets according to the wetness of the board so as not to tip our hand strength. Maybe that was so 2007 though? |
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Posted: Thu, 05 Nov 2009, 12:48am Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 592
WPP: 114
Location: Montreal, Canada
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| count me in the camp of 3/4 potting flop and turn |
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Posted: Thu, 05 Nov 2009, 8:04am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 3188
WPP: 95
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| I love this thread. Please continue. |
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Posted: Thu, 05 Nov 2009, 9:33am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 3294
WPP: 87
Location: Toronto'ish
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| I like OP's sizing, I like a bet of around 4-4.50 here. That being said, a lot of villains will perceive a smallish bet here as either "why would he bet so small on such a drawy board if he had something"... or "he's pricing in his draw for cheap".. and probably jam light. So if I chose that sizing I think I'd be b/c. |
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FTR $100 Freeroll at LuckyAcePoker, Nov 21st @ 15:00 ET
