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Posted: Fri, 06 Nov 2009, 1:00am Post subject: Good ol' AQ.. what to do...
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 3294
WPP: 87
Location: Toronto'ish
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Hand 1
-Villain in this hand is Alexander T from stars, reg
-Haven't played with him in a while, I'm sure I've spewed to him somehow in the past, if he remembers
-villain is 24/19/2.78 with utg stats of 24/24 (loooosey goosey)
-call or shove river?
$3/$6 No Limit Holdem
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG ($640)
CO ($606)
BTN ($610.05)
SB ($321.70)
Hero (BB) ($812)
Pre-Flop: ($9, 5 players) Hero is BB  
UTG raises to $18, 3 folds, Hero calls $12
Flop:    ($39, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $24, Hero calls $24
Turn:  ($87, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $60, Hero calls $60
River:  ($207, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $174, Hero ?
Hand 2
-this is a hand a friend of mine played, I don't really like any of his sizing anywhere, but comments on hand aside from sizing would be good
-Villain in this hand opens a lot of buttons, has been stealing a lot and he has 3bet him a few times
-This is the first 3bet he has called all sesh and folds to a lot of 3bets in general (fold to 3bet around 65-70%)
-no real reads on his postflop play in 3bet pots
-villain is playing 20/17/2.8
$3/$6 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com
Stacks:
UTG ($709)
UTG+1 ($687)
CO ($639.75)
Villain (BTN) ($600)
Hero ($603)
BB ($1,113.05)
Pre-Flop: ($9, 6 players) Hero is SB 
3 folds, Villain raises to $15, Hero raises to $60, 1 fold, Villain calls $45
Flop:   ($126, 2 players)
Hero bets $66, Villain calls $66
Turn:  ($258, 2 players)
Hero checks, Villain checks
River:  ($258, 2 players)
Hero bets $90, Villain goes all-in $474, Hero ? |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Nov 2009, 1:25am Post subject:
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2009
Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 1656
WPP: 64
Location: bluffing scare cards
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1) It's close but if you think he b/c AJ and A9 then shove seems good. I personally think he'll b/f those and may not even bet those this big so I would just flat.
2) I don't really get what he has here and I'd like to know how much he 4 bets. I would usually bet the turn. With your sizing on the river you very well could have induced something but without history I think I'd just fold. |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Nov 2009, 11:15am Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4170
WPP: 77
Location: Dublin
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id prefer c/r on turn in hand 1 since we are oop especially, id c/r river too since i doubt he will fold any 2 pairs getting decent enough odds.
hand 2 - sick but with no reads its bad move to call |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Nov 2009, 4:52pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 1021
WPP: 92
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In the first one, if I'm not c/r'ing the turn I'm definitely looking to c/shove the river. I don't care if he might b/f AJ/A9, I'd want to do it for metagame reasons and for overall image.
Second one I agree w/ meeloche. River sizing definitely will induce this quite a bit. I like the way the hand was played up until the river. River bet needs to be bigger to insure villain can't bluff shove. |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Nov 2009, 6:04pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 1914
WPP: 60
Location: Montreal
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| Marshall28 wrote: | | . I don't care if he might b/f AJ/A9, I'd want to do it for metagame reasons and for overall image. |
fo real? Might as well do -ev plays all over the place then, you'll certainly get that image across.
| Marshall28 wrote: | | Second one I agree w/ meeloche. River sizing definitely will induce this quite a bit. I like the way the hand was played up until the river. River bet needs to be bigger to insure villain can't bluff shove. |
So instead of betting small and having his Ax hands call and his bluffs to shove over, you'd rather make it big so that both these hands can fold? |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Nov 2009, 6:10pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 3294
WPP: 87
Location: Toronto'ish
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| Alexos wrote: |
| Marshall28 wrote: | | Second one I agree w/ meeloche. River sizing definitely will induce this quite a bit. I like the way the hand was played up until the river. River bet needs to be bigger to insure villain can't bluff shove. |
So instead of betting small and having his Ax hands call and his bluffs to shove over, you'd rather make it big so that both these hands can fold? |
Well I'm pretty sure he just means he'd rather bet bigger to ensure he doesn't fold the best hand to a shove, if he's not planning on calling a shove. It's not like someone's full range on that shove is just bluffs.. clearly there's value there.
Its probably not a great idea to make an inducing sized bet if you're not calling a shove. |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Nov 2009, 6:11pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 1914
WPP: 60
Location: Montreal
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| Hand 2: I think villain would bet his flushes and QJ type hand on the turn 95% of the time. Also the best hand you have here is like AK, and since its 2009 and ppl are hand reading decent a bluff shove is def possible given your gay sizing. Then again some are just not capable of bluffing here ever. |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Nov 2009, 6:20pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 3294
WPP: 87
Location: Toronto'ish
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OK for those that haven't noticed, I'm villain in this hand.
| Alexos wrote: | | Hand 2: I think villain would bet his flushes and QJ type hand on the turn 95% of the time. |
I don't really agree with this. Yes I agree that if I had a flush on this turn, I'd probably bet fairly often. But if I had a read that villain c/f's turns that would give me a little more incentive to check it back. Clearly if I knew villain was the type to bet/check/bet then I'd be even more likely to check it back, knowing I still had opportunity to get it in on river shove.
As for QJ, I think I'm checking QJ back here fairly often to balance with most of my Ax range on this board and then betting river if checked to again, as I would do with my AX range.
I think if villain c/f's this turn, then he was probably going to ck ck turn and c/f river anyhow. If villain takes b/ck/b line here then he was probably going to c/c turn if I bet. Seems like its best to see two checks with QJ here before betting river... unless you wanna run a two street bluff that is... |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Nov 2009, 6:41pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 1914
WPP: 60
Location: Montreal
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yea re-read the action, for some reason this hand is the reverse of what you showed me on msn:P
you can have a flush or QJ there more often i guess, but i still believe most ppl expect you to bet the turn with it most of the time albeit 95% was obv an exageration |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Nov 2009, 7:07pm Post subject:
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HABITUAL LINE-STEPPER
Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 5718
WPP: 72
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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id lead teh flop in hand one and call river
2) 3betting pre seems pretty not smart. postflop meh, i suppose he could bet a little larger on river, but it all looks ok to me, so long as he folded |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Nov 2009, 8:36pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 3294
WPP: 87
Location: Toronto'ish
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| Renton wrote: |
2) 3betting pre seems pretty not smart. |
Are you basing this on villain's high fold to 3bet? |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Nov 2009, 8:40pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 531
WPP: 112
Location: London
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Hand 1 I would never shove river, looks like a very tight call actually.
What does he think he is getting value out of on the river that you check called the flop and the turn with OOP & didn't raise?
I think he therefore at worst has A9s/AJ +- 8 combos but has 12-15 combos that are better.
Hand 2, my 2 cents, easy call for hero and if you are villain is not a good bluff but good for value.
Hero would expect you to raise his CB alot if u had a flush draw because his CB range would be pretty wide & polarised on an A high flop.
So by the turn he probably thinks you have very few flushes in your range, even moreso by the river and if you had floated flop with a hand like QJ you would prob bet turn to represent the flush.
So on the river when your range has a very limited amount of flushes/QJ/AK you shove pre/Probably raise flop with sets/2pr etc.
Any hero would have a hard time folding tp2k in a 3B pot here.
So his bet is more likely to get value from worse or induce from worse that realises it's no good. |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Nov 2009, 9:05pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 592
WPP: 114
Location: Montreal, Canada
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hmm...don't have any deep thoughts. I would prob just call hand 1 since 150 bbs deep and shove if only 100bbs.
I would c/call the river in hand 2 - in a rr pot are we expecting to get looked up light here? I think our best bet is to hope villain turns a hand like j10-910 into a bluff (hoping we fold jj/qq/kq or something). |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Nov 2009, 9:36pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 1021
WPP: 92
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| Alexos wrote: | | Marshall28 wrote: | | . I don't care if he might b/f AJ/A9, I'd want to do it for metagame reasons and for overall image. |
fo real? Might as well do -ev plays all over the place then, you'll certainly get that image across.
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LOL, I said if he might fold AJ/A9. This assumes that there is a non zero % of the time those hands call, that % goes up the more frequent players think I bluff raise the river.
Alex, why comin after me? |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Nov 2009, 9:58pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 3294
WPP: 87
Location: Toronto'ish
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| Ravageur wrote: | | hmm...don't have any deep thoughts. I would prob just call hand 1 since 150 bbs deep and shove if only 100bbs.. |
It's 100bbs, guess that means shovzilla |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Nov 2009, 10:21pm Post subject:
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HABITUAL LINE-STEPPER
Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 5718
WPP: 72
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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| griffey24 wrote: | | Renton wrote: |
2) 3betting pre seems pretty not smart. |
Are you basing this on villain's high fold to 3bet? |
yeah if he's not even calling dominated hands it just seems like a massive waste to 3bet it |
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Posted: Fri, 06 Nov 2009, 10:55pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 1914
WPP: 60
Location: Montreal
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| Marshall28 wrote: | | Alexos wrote: | | Marshall28 wrote: | | . I don't care if he might b/f AJ/A9, I'd want to do it for metagame reasons and for overall image. |
fo real? Might as well do -ev plays all over the place then, you'll certainly get that image across.
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LOL, I said if he might fold AJ/A9. This assumes that there is a non zero % of the time those hands call, that % goes up the more frequent players think I bluff raise the river.
Alex, why comin after me? |
sry if it seemed that way. But justifying a bad play for metagame/image purposes doesnt seem that good thats all. |
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Posted: Sat, 07 Nov 2009, 3:37am Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 25 May 2008
Posts: 1147
WPP: 64
Location: Manc U.K.
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hand 1: river's really close, I'd probably shove, just a problem whether he even calls with aj a9.
hand 2: I think 3 betting pre is fine, just because he folds to a decentish amount of 3 bets, but hardly an obscene amount isn't enough justification in my mind to be flatting oop vs a competent opp when this guy's btn range will be super wide. I'd go for $156 on the river though I think c/cing is a viable option, as played, I'd fold, I think calling would just be compounding your original river sizing mistake. |
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Posted: Sat, 07 Nov 2009, 3:55am Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 592
WPP: 114
Location: Montreal, Canada
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| oh thought this it was 2/4 not 3/6. Yah i'd shove then i guess but my 150 bb comment was just because i noticed there was quite a bit behind for him to call off and the more behind = the more times he only calls with better hands not worse. It's still close. |
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Posted: Tue, 10 Nov 2009, 8:34am Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Posts: 328
WPP: 315
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| About shoving river, I'm not sure enough draws missed to warrent him calling with worse if you do shove, as I assume he wouldn't expect you to value shove with <2 pair, also when you call the turn you probably dont have something to go with your draws pair/gutter etc. so if he expects you to raise Qxss and J10ss on the flop a high % of the time, he can discount it from your range somewhat when you do take this line. So the draws I'd imagine you'd C/C turn with are usually Axss, 10 8ss, K10ss (most likely) and all but one of those is now >TP....he'd also have to think you capable of turning Axss (which isn't two pair - A10ss) into a bluff. |
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