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Posted: Sat, 24 Mar 2007, 11:50pm Post subject: Follow my thought process through a hand and see if u agree
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Flush
Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 505
WPP: 108
Location: Pittsburgh
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-----Hand 3-----
Heros M = 18.67
Full Tilt Poker Game #2063427822: $10 + $1 Sit & Go (15481884), Table 1 - 15/30 - No Limit Holdem - 23:39:56 ET - 2007/03/24
Condensed history provided by the Tournament Trimmer (v1.1.1w) from http://www.FlopTurnRiver.com
Seat 1: storytime3 (1,080)
Seat 2: Lucas67 (2,580)
Seat 3: xanthas (1,365)
Seat 4: j-dubb11 (1,425)
Seat 5: MVP04X3 (1,725)
Seat 6: ccorriere (1,440)
Seat 7: Hero (840)
Seat 8: PARLESS (1,590)
Seat 9: Actuarialgod (1,455)
PARLESS posts the small blind of 15
Actuarialgod posts the big blind of 30
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [9d 9c]
storytime3 folds
Lucas67 folds
xanthas raises to 90
j-dubb11 folds
MVP04X3 folds
ccorriere folds
Hero calls 90Should I Flat call here or repop this early?
PARLESS folds
Actuarialgod folds
*** FLOP *** [4c 7s As]
xanthas bets 90
Hero raises to 300 Why would he lead so weak into this pot with any reasonable ace? a-10 + and i feel the strong underpairs woudlve checked and waited to see if i bet the pot
xanthas calls 210 Would he just call with an ace? Didnt make any sense
*** TURN *** [4c 7s As] [8c]
xanthas checks
Hero checks I dont know what i was thinking here, pros and cons could be argued i guess
*** RIVER *** [4c 7s As 8c] [3h]
xanthas bets 825 As soon as the river was dealt i thought instantly, why wud he bet like that, he would bet a flush draw like that!!
Hero calls 450, and is all in
Uncalled bet of 375 returned to xanthas
*** SHOW DOWN ***
xanthas shows [8s 5s] (a pair of Eights)
Hero shows [9d 9c] (a pair of Nines)
Hero wins the pot (1,725) with a pair of Nines
I was actually right but he cudve easily had tens + but i think it wouldbe played diff than that....
any thoughts or ideas welcome... |
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Posted: Sun, 25 Mar 2007, 1:17am Post subject: Re: Follow my thought process through a hand and see if u ag
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Straight Flush
Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 9476
WPP: 127
Location: Sydney
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| Roco415 wrote: | -----Hand 3-----
Heros M = 18.67
Full Tilt Poker Game #2063427822: $10 + $1 Sit & Go (15481884), Table 1 - 15/30 - No Limit Holdem - 23:39:56 ET - 2007/03/24
Condensed history provided by the Tournament Trimmer (v1.1.1w) from http://www.FlopTurnRiver.com
Seat 1: storytime3 (1,080)
Seat 2: Lucas67 (2,580)
Seat 3: xanthas (1,365)
Seat 4: j-dubb11 (1,425)
Seat 5: MVP04X3 (1,725)
Seat 6: ccorriere (1,440)
Seat 7: Hero (840)
Seat 8: PARLESS (1,590)
Seat 9: Actuarialgod (1,455)
PARLESS posts the small blind of 15
Actuarialgod posts the big blind of 30
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [9d 9c]
storytime3 folds
Lucas67 folds
xanthas raises to 90
j-dubb11 folds
MVP04X3 folds
ccorriere folds
Hero calls 90Should I Flat call here or repop this early? I would flat call here and play for set value. I'm not re-raising this early.
PARLESS folds
Actuarialgod folds
*** FLOP *** [4c 7s As]
xanthas bets 90
Hero raises to 300 Why would he lead so weak into this pot with any reasonable ace? a-10 + and i feel the strong underpairs woudlve checked and waited to see if i bet the pot I'm folding here. Whilst he may be c-betting, there is at least a reasonable chance that he's got Ax and you're drawing to 2 outs.
xanthas calls 210 Would he just call with an ace? Didnt make any sense He might. Certainly in a cash game I would just call your raise here if I had something like AK
*** TURN *** [4c 7s As] [8c]
xanthas checks
Hero checks I dont know what i was thinking here, pros and cons could be argued i guess As played, I agree, I am not firing again.
*** RIVER *** [4c 7s As 8c] [3h]
xanthas bets 825 As soon as the river was dealt i thought instantly, why wud he bet like that, he would bet a flush draw like that!!
Hero calls 450, and is all in Fold. I think you're beat here much more often than not
Uncalled bet of 375 returned to xanthas
*** SHOW DOWN ***
xanthas shows [8s 5s] (a pair of Eights) Wow, what a donkey!
Hero shows [9d 9c] (a pair of Nines)
Hero wins the pot (1,725) with a pair of Nines
I was actually right but he cudve easily had tens + but i think it wouldbe played diff than that....I think that this is a losing play more often than not. Sure, you happened to be right this time but very often they show you a pair of aces or better and you've donked off your whole stack on second pair.
any thoughts or ideas welcome... | |
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Posted: Sun, 25 Mar 2007, 3:17am Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 17 Apr 2006
Posts: 715
WPP: 101
Location: South Bend IN
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| I think i like the flop reraise. I think when someone bets the same amount on the flop that they raised pf, they usually dont have a real strong hand. Not always the case, but i find that it is alot of the time. After the call im checking behind on the turn and folding the river bet. |
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Posted: Sun, 25 Mar 2007, 4:33am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 2655
WPP: 90
Location: Arlington, VA
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| It's too early to be gambling like this. If you're going to continue on the flop, simply calling (perhaps betting any non-K, Q, J turn if checked to) is probably better than raising. |
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Posted: Sun, 25 Mar 2007, 10:43am Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 4631
WPP: 65
Location: Stars $16 and $27 Sngs
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One point to note is that hero's stack size is 840, while M is OK still it is short stack, and the preflop raise represents more then 10% of hero's stack.
In this specific case I think set hunting is marginal, I dont think calling is bad, and I think the options are calling or pushing.
The flop for me is a clear push/fold situation. I dont like the A and the leading out by villian, there is no real way of knowing if we are ahead or behind.
I think I just push it, hoping I can get him to fold Ax if x<Q |
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Posted: Sun, 25 Mar 2007, 12:39pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 03 Aug 2005
Posts: 1063
WPP: 166
Location: Germany
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Most players will min bet that flop hoping the ace scared you. He could be slow playing you too... With two unders and an Ace on the flop you have to know something...
1. You didnt hit your set.
2. Its a reasonable assumption he raised with an Ace out of that position.
3. If you want to check raise a flop like this situation, do it when its all unders. Or draw heavy and you hit a set.
4. 90 is a weak C bet. Your down to two outs. I may call the 90 and then go into the turn but if he fires again I am definetly tossing it.
5. He may give you a free card on the turn if you call his C bet. Meaning I am value betting the river regardless of what comes. Sometimes you dont need to CR a flop to get a free card. In your case and stack size, you dont have any leverage to CR unless you want him to know I have a strong hand. CRing the turn is better than the flop. He will check the river more than likely, unless he is strong.
I say you keep this pot small given the situation. Any half pot, full pot, overbet, exactly what you have left bet on the river.... You know your beat bad. However, if you keep this pot manageable and he is an aggressive player, you can just call and youve priced the showdown if its within reason. Or it could go check check.. |
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Posted: Sun, 25 Mar 2007, 12:53pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 505
WPP: 108
Location: Pittsburgh
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| fasin8ing wrote: |
I say you keep this pot small given the situation. Any half pot, full pot, overbet, exactly what you have left bet on the river.... You know your beat bad. However, if you keep this pot manageable and he is an aggressive player, you can just call and youve priced the showdown if its within reason. Or it could go check check.. |
I like the concept of small pots that you're brigning up, I usually have that in mind but i feel like at some point you have to win a huge pot to win SNG's...Maybe im completely wrong, and im not trying to argue; But is there a better way to accumulate chips because i find it difficult to just win small pots all tourney..? |
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Posted: Sun, 25 Mar 2007, 1:52pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 03 Aug 2005
Posts: 1063
WPP: 166
Location: Germany
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| Roco415 wrote: | | fasin8ing wrote: |
I say you keep this pot small given the situation. Any half pot, full pot, overbet, exactly what you have left bet on the river.... You know your beat bad. However, if you keep this pot manageable and he is an aggressive player, you can just call and youve priced the showdown if its within reason. Or it could go check check.. |
I like the concept of small pots that you're brigning up, I usually have that in mind but i feel like at some point you have to win a huge pot to win SNG's...Maybe im completely wrong, and im not trying to argue; But is there a better way to accumulate chips because i find it difficult to just win small pots all tourney..? |
Unfortunately with your stack size you are just trying to showdown cheap if your going to go past the flop.
Now, if you can build small Post Flop with hands like these and then hit on the turn or river.... Thats when pots get huge.
You build up small pots on boards that arent so draw heavy and then cash in on the turn and river. Its ok to build up small pots and take small pots.
To answer your question in ref to a better way to accumulate chips. Your trying to eventually survive if your getting cold carded or only winning small pots. Then when your in push mode, thats where your doubling up and making it in the money. Unless you are doubling up very early on, you have to win small pots and blinds to survive down to four players. From there, you need to concentrate on your short handed and bubble play. |
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Posted: Sun, 25 Mar 2007, 3:18pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 2655
WPP: 90
Location: Arlington, VA
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| Roco415 wrote: | | I usually have that in mind but i feel like at some point you have to win a huge pot to win SNG's |
Barring the rare case where your opponent is a lunatic and you decide to take a huge risk on a hand, you cannot win a huge pot with 9-9 on an A high board. |
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Posted: Sun, 25 Mar 2007, 3:54pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 416
WPP: 82
Location: NY
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| Seems to early to pop it up. I call and try to hit a set. May just be a standard c-bet however he could have 10-10 or his own set or a-x. Later in the tourney maybe I play but at this blind level I'm folding post flop. |
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Posted: Sun, 25 Mar 2007, 4:08pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 1920
WPP: 121
Location: St. Louis
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| At least consider slow-played flop, wiffed CR on turn, and desperation river push for value. |
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Posted: Mon, 26 Mar 2007, 2:03am Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 9476
WPP: 127
Location: Sydney
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| TLR wrote: | One point to note is that hero's stack size is 840, while M is OK still it is short stack, and the preflop raise represents more then 10% of hero's stack.
In this specific case I think set hunting is marginal, I dont think calling is bad, and I think the options are calling or pushing. |
I agree that flat calling the raise is a bit thin if it's only for set value, but 99 has some overpair value and there are a lot of one overcard flops that I'd be comfortable shoving given that we have postflop position if opp checks or makes a c-bet. Eg. I'd shove a Txx, Jxx, Qxx and possibly Kxx flop, but would probably fold on an A high flop or if two rather than one overcards came on the flop.
| TLR wrote: | The flop for me is a clear push/fold situation. I dont like the A and the leading out by villian, there is no real way of knowing if we are ahead or behind.
I think I just push it, hoping I can get him to fold Ax if x<Q |
Agreed, with Hero's stack size I am either folding or shoving on the flop, re-raising is no good considering Hero has 500 chips behind. I don't think a low buyin opp ever folds Ax on this flop so I choose fold. |
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Posted: Sat, 31 Mar 2007, 10:33pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 1477
WPP: 98
Location: swonging and swonging
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I don't have anything to add about the OP, but about building a stack in an SNG without risking your whole stack:
Check out the SNG experiment HHs when Taipan posts them. There was an awful lot of blind stealing going on. You'll get some good explainations as well. |
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Posted: Sat, 31 Mar 2007, 11:54pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 3029
WPP: 115
Location: GO BUCKS!
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| TLR wrote: | One point to note is that hero's stack size is 840, while M is OK still it is short stack, and the preflop raise represents more then 10% of hero's stack.
In this specific case I think set hunting is marginal, I dont think calling is bad, and I think the options are calling or pushing.
The flop for me is a clear push/fold situation. I dont like the A and the leading out by villian, there is no real way of knowing if we are ahead or behind.
I think I just push it, hoping I can get him to fold Ax if x<Q |
^^^This is money IMO. |
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