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Posted: Mon, 02 Nov 2009, 9:48pm Post subject: Dramatic perspective change hand
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Almost as bad as that idiot redgrape
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 6593
WPP: 74
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Opp is tsifknits who is generally nitty preflop and is pretty solid postflop. I had this hand while i was screwing around killing time at 200nl. I've been playing aggro, but he mass multis prob didnt even notice besides my preflop stats which may be showing something like 40/36. I think flop, turn, and river are all interesting.
PokerStars Game #34849992376: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2 USD) - 2009/11/02 20:43:52 ET
Table 'Irus III' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: heybude ($409.50 in chips)
Seat 2: tsifknits ($228.95 in chips)
Seat 3: simona75 ($202.25 in chips)
Seat 5: thecooler992 ($219.60 in chips)
simona75: posts small blind $1
thecooler992: posts big blind $2
a7ofspades: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to heybude [9h Qd]
heybude: raises $2.10 to $4.10
tsifknits: calls $4.10
simona75: folds
thecooler992: folds
*** FLOP *** [3c Td Jc]
heybude: bets $8.60
tsifknits: raises $13.40 to $22
heybude: calls $13.40
*** TURN *** [3c Td Jc] [Kc]
heybude: checks
tsifknits: bets $30
heybude: calls $30
*** RIVER *** [3c Td Jc Kc] [4c]
heybude: checks
Kangoosaure is connected
tsifknits: bets $34
Kangoosaure is connected
heybude: raises $146.75 to $180.75 |
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Posted: Mon, 02 Nov 2009, 10:13pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 1014
WPP: 93
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| I usually get it ... but I just don't get it... What's out of the ordinary about this? |
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Posted: Mon, 02 Nov 2009, 10:17pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
Posts: 531
WPP: 112
Location: London
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My 2 cents, If he didn't mass multi-table it would be a great hand.
Flop looks good, shoving with a non-nut straight draw where some of your outs are tainted (clubs) is not a great option but calling because you have implied odds and the opportunity to bluff at some clubs depending on what he does on the turn seems good.
Turn - raising over-reps your hand too much so calling seems pretty good.
River is a bet sizing tell alot of weak players myself included have because people don't usually exploit it which is that if you have a weak flush say 9 high you bet a small amount to get called by worse than the 9 high flush but if you had the Ace you would bet stronger because Q/9 flush draw would still call you.
(+ sometimes it is a total bluff & + also sometimes to induce something spazzy.)
So this is a good spot to bluff CR, except if he is mass multi-tabling as he might not even fold a 8/9 high flush to you because you have wild stats & he thinks you would have shoved flop with nut flush draw.
However a better player would put AcQx AcTx AcKx etc. in your range and also think that this would be a bad spot for you to bluff and give you more credit and fold. |
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Posted: Mon, 02 Nov 2009, 10:34pm Post subject:
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2009
Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 1656
WPP: 64
Location: bluffing scare cards
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Tsfknits also has mass multitabled 5/10 and 3/6 for the majority of this year and I expect him to likely know who you are isf so he's probably going off more than just your stats.
Your line is certainly solid and you picked a type of villain who can hand read so I'd say nh. It certainly helps that you can have the Ac much more often than he can and I'd imagine that's the main reason you decided to bluff here. |
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 8:20am Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 1014
WPP: 93
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 9:49am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 3294
WPP: 87
Location: Toronto'ish
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| meeloche wrote: | | It certainly helps that you can have the Ac much more often than he can and I'd imagine that's the main reason you decided to bluff here. |
I don't agree with his. How do we have more Ac than him? He's raising this flop, so I'd say a lot of his range is already Axcc for doing that. Hero is calling OOP. Hero probably usually 3bets Axcc, so now the only Ac we have are AcK and AcQ type stuff and we might not even always call flop with those.
I still don't mind the bluff, just cause villains betting range is waay wider than just the Ac on the river and that's mostly the only thing he will call with, I just wouldn't say its more in our range than his. |
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 11:55am Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4170
WPP: 77
Location: Dublin
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| id agree with griffey. i didnt understand how meeloche thinks Ac is more in our range. |
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 12:06pm Post subject:
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Almost as bad as that idiot redgrape
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 6593
WPP: 74
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| I'm sorry if the title was vague, I meant by "perspective change" that I went from having value to turning my hand into a bluff. |
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 1:38pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 813
WPP: 69
Location: in my dad's account making him manies
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| I think villain can convince himself (or perhaps even plan) to call with some lower flushes because of his river betsizing. |
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 2:17pm Post subject:
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2009
Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 1656
WPP: 64
Location: bluffing scare cards
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| Marshall28 wrote: | | oops misread board |
+1 Disregard my we can have Ac more than him... |
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 2:43pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 3556
WPP: 112
Location: at your tables, calling your bets
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| FWIW he minbet the river with TT on a KT22x board against me, and I got owned by raising my king and calling a 3-bet. I'd be careful about assuming weak river bet = thin value bet that will fold to a raise, against someone as solid as him who probably doesn't have blatant bet-sizing tells. |
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 2:52pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1892
WPP: 109
Location: surfing in a room
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| this is so over my head. would somebody mind to give me a hint on why hero c/cīs turn? |
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 2:55pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 822
WPP: 76
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| XTR1000 wrote: | | this is so over my head. would somebody mind to give me a hint on why hero c/cīs turn? |
We have a straight, and there is a possible flush out there. We aren't folding our straight, and we aren't raising because not many worse hands will call. |
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 6:30pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 1014
WPP: 93
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| mcatdog wrote: | | FWIW he minbet the river with TT on a KT22x board against me, and I got owned by raising my king and calling a 3-bet. I'd be careful about assuming weak river bet = thin value bet that will fold to a raise, against someone as solid as him who probably doesn't have blatant bet-sizing tells. |
I think almost everyone playing 200nl has pretty blatant sizing tells? |
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Posted: Tue, 03 Nov 2009, 6:31pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 1014
WPP: 93
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| IowaSkinsFan wrote: | | I'm sorry if the title was vague, I meant by "perspective change" that I went from having value to turning my hand into a bluff. |
LOL I thought the title meant that there was something about the hand that changed the way you looked at the game in general.
I think I get it now. |
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Posted: Wed, 04 Nov 2009, 1:21am Post subject:
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Almost as bad as that idiot redgrape
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 6593
WPP: 74
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| mcatdog wrote: | | FWIW he minbet the river with TT on a KT22x board against me, and I got owned by raising my king and calling a 3-bet. I'd be careful about assuming weak river bet = thin value bet that will fold to a raise, against someone as solid as him who probably doesn't have blatant bet-sizing tells. |
I think this is the best part about this hand. There are definitely times where a player will bet small to try to get you to raise. In this situation, however, I think thats less likely given I'd have to turn my made hands into bluffs which I doubt anyone would expect. So why would he bet small? Probably for thin value. Now if im in pos and a draw missed or something id imagine he could bet small to induce. Here it doesnt seem like thats the case. |
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Posted: Wed, 04 Nov 2009, 3:50am Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 1014
WPP: 93
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| IowaSkinsFan wrote: |
I think this is the best part about this hand. There are definitely times where a player will bet small to try to get you to raise. In this situation, however, I think thats less likely given I'd have to turn my made hands into bluffs which I doubt anyone would expect. |
I hadn't really thought about that. That's actually a really good point and makes this hand pretty cool IMO. |
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Posted: Wed, 04 Nov 2009, 5:18am Post subject:
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midstakes donk
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 2977
WPP: 43
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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| well i think his most likely hands are the nuts, TcTx, and rare bluffs. I'm not sure sure mr tsifnits even bets the ten here in position, but if he did, he's definitely folding to a raise. |
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Posted: Wed, 04 Nov 2009, 6:56am Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 5680
WPP: 126
Location: Ballarat, Australia
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| Hmm, you dont think he has stuff like 7c8c, 8c9c? |
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Posted: Wed, 04 Nov 2009, 7:26am Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4170
WPP: 77
Location: Dublin
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| he would prob check them flushes back on river Bj |
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Posted: Wed, 04 Nov 2009, 8:09am Post subject:
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midstakes donk
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 2977
WPP: 43
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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| no chance he'd bet w/ a club worse than t |
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Posted: Wed, 04 Nov 2009, 8:41am Post subject:
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Almost as bad as that idiot redgrape
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 6593
WPP: 74
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| Is leading the turn better? Anything better to do on the flop? |
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Posted: Wed, 04 Nov 2009, 10:51am Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 1014
WPP: 93
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| IowaSkinsFan wrote: | | Is leading the turn better? Anything better to do on the flop? |
I don't think there's anything better you could have done.
If you 3bet the flop the NFD and all 2pr+ just jams on you and you don't get to realize any of the equity you have in the pot. On a rainbow board I think a 3bet would be okay, not that it's the best play, just that it's better on rainbow than it is on 2 tone.
If you led turn you'd have to fold to a raise and it would be super obvious that no one good would ever c/c a fd and lead the made flush on the turn. I would suspect most players would see through this and bluff raise u quite a bit. If he's a very weak player I suppose I wouldn't mind lead/folding the turn, but I think c/c is still way superior---particularly if you are good enough to make the type of read u did on his river sizing and occasionally turn your hand into a bluff.
Somehow I feel like you already knew everything I just said though. |
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Posted: Wed, 04 Nov 2009, 11:51am Post subject:
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 106
WPP: 135
Location: Iso'ing Iso's
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I'm trying to put myself in his shoes and put some credible nut hands in your range.
You wouldn't 3bet flop with Axcc oop?
Would you b/c Ac10x on the flop?
Would you c/c AcQx or AcKx on the turn?
I can't really comment on what is right or wrong here since you're obv more advanced than myself but I personally think it looks more full of shit than not and I'd be more proned to call if I was going for thin value on the river.
Isn't this hand reverse ISF thereom? |
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