Discussion: Tools for Patience in MTT

RE: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10215

Great post! you described alot of my flaws that i have as a mtt player. I think those percentage rules are a good idea, it gives people something structured to think about, even if they aren't perfect it gives them (and me) something to aim for.

Thanks aok, great post.

the whole meat on the bone thing was great. IF you have chips, your still in it, whether or not "your pot committed" for one hand. Although, Im not sure where I am personally able to draw the line between making a good play to stay in the tournament and just making a weak tight play. STill working on that.

*Last edited by aokrongly on Tue, 26 Dec 2006, 11:02am; edited 1 time in total*

Great post! Sticky worthy maybe?

Awesome post aok, I found myself agreeing with every part of it.

I've been getting much deeper in MTT's recently by "letting the game flow to me" and being in the zone with that rather than pushing my luck and leaning on people all the time just because I have some chips and a speculative hand.

Excellent advice for anyone needing MTT pointers.

Graet post AOK. I like the idea of setting goals as to how many chips you need for ITM etc. Something definite to aim for.

Are you back to playing the game professionally or still takin a break?

Hi all, this is my first post. I've been lurking for a couple of months now and I just love the site. AOK thank you for this post. I think you hit the nail on the head for me here. I find in MTTs that I'll spend 3 hours accumulating chips and then get impatient/defensive and start contesting pots that I just shouldn't be in. This has happened to me in virtually every MTT that I reach the final 2 tables (I have yet to make a FT in a MTT). I'll be sitting on 20k-50k chips and think I'm the shit so I start worrying that someone's moving in on my blinds so I call and inevitably end up with a drawing hand that doesn't fill up. If only I had the discipline to keep up the kind of play that got me the chips in the first place (thanks to FTR Wink

) I would probably make the FT.

For example, two nights ago I'm in a 258 player MTT and I'm 7th in chips with 16 players left w/Qc8c on the bb. I get one raiser from MP so I call and it's HU. Flop comes real raggy w/1 club. I figure I'll find out where he's at so I throw out a 1/2 pot bet and he calls. Turn: another raggy club. I bet the pot this time hoping he'll drop. He calls and I'm now left with about 3000 chips with a pot of about 25K. River comes: Xd. Should've check/folded (meat on the bone) but I went ai and he took it down w/Ace high. Picked up my 4 bucks and beat myself up for the play for the next few hours.

This is just one example of about 10 that I have and every time the result is the same (with the exception of the 20K chips I took with 74o on the bb when I flopped 2pr - to go on and bubble out in 27th b/c of my ill-timed aggression).

Side note: as far as calculating the chips I should have to reach the FT I just take the total tourney chips out and divide by 10 to give me the average.

Now, the question: Once it gets down to 10% of the original field, does the skill level of players go up or is it the same fishy AI-on-every-draw players that it starts out with? I play at Royal Vegas in the $1-$3 freezeouts (200-800 players) and I always feel out of my element when I reach the last 20 or so because the tables are shuffled and I assume the players are all sharks. Do I need to switch up my game or just keep playing the same tightish game I was playing? (maybe I should reread rippy's or rada's posts)

Again, thanks for the post and I hope to become a FTRr who actually contributes something very soon. Peace, and thanks for the great site. Wink

couldn't agree more... great post

Great post, AOK!

Semi-Testimonial:

I suck at MTT's. Don't spend much money there, 'cuz it's -EV for me.
Just signed on at Party and they have a $5000 Freeroll for new players. I usually avoid these things, but the dead money in it was nice, and I knew it'd be somewhat limited enrollment. Problem was, I knew I could only play for an hour and 15 minutes, then I had to leave for an appointment.

I registered anyway, did the AOK math and figured with 1500 registered I should have 8600 to make the money (180 players deep ITM). It would take 22250 to get to the final 70, and 155K for the final table. My goal was to make it ITM, and return from my appointment to see if I was still in the game.

When play began, I pushed a little, and there were many absent players, so it was short handed play. After some swings, I settled down, more folks showed up to play, and I got into the game.

I eventually had an above average stack, but was only about 40% to my goal, and had only 5 minutes left to play. A couple risky all-ins (it is a freeroll after all) with 77 and AKo brought me up to 6800, just 1500 short of my ITM goal. I clicked Post and Fold and left for my appointment.

I got back home 2 hours later. I had ~just~ blinded out, 80-something-th place, and 100 players into the money. If I'd been there, I'm not sure I'd have done as well, but the combo of goals and patience (forced patience) was key to my tiny success.

I think I'll try again sometime when I have 4 hours to play. Smile

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aok, I didnt agree with you in DW's post, and maybe I just took your comments the wrong way. However I really liked this post, it seems to say the same thing in a different way. 'Dont know if that makes sense.

This post should be stickied, i litterally had a calculator infront of my computer and i decided how aggressive i needed to be by the size of my stack compared to the blinds. I got my first "win" in a mtt today, it was a 200 person satelite for the 530 dollar tourney on PokerStars. I wouldn't have made it to the money without this post. So thanks alot!

Indeed, this style of play is GREAT for satelites. And it gets the job done in normal FO's and rebuys too Im sure.

I actaully managed to win two of them in one day for a total of $1060 tournament dollars, i guess i'm going to be playing alot of tourneys Very Happy

Eggman, I could be wrong but I think early game fishiness is replaced by late game hyper-agression, and makes it a wash if you're playing good cards in both stages of the game. You can steal late, where early it's almost impossible. But playing quality and folding marginal edges is the play with both, except late you can raise with a marginal edge preflop and take the blinds from time to time, with position.

eeeeeeeeee, that has to be the best story I've heard this year. It will become one of my morality tales, that's for sure. I have no doubt I will embellish it. But your example is REAL and TELLING. Now imagine if you had been there and just played 3 super-quality hands during those 3 hours and they held up. Nothing else.

No worries BoostnSlide... I could be full of shit!!! lol

I'm glad you guys found the post valuable.

So do you think that late in the tourney protecting my BB w/Q8s (or any other marginal hand) when faced with a small raise is a bad idea? Should I just let it go PF as in the earlier stages? Thanks again for your insight.

uhh.. there is no reason to 'protect my blinds' at any point in a tournament. Only if someone is repeatedly doing it, then you can put a move on them. however I would not do it without cards, and a lot of the time its better to do this post flop. Also, if you push over a late raise from BB it looks like you are sick of him picking on your blinds. However if someone steals from mid/late and you are button, you can restael here if they have been doing it a lot, and it doesnt look so obvious. I dont really suggest 'protecting' your own blind, its just pointless without cards.

Boost is right. "Protecting the BB" means going WAY over the top of that weak raise by button or SB. Calling is not protecting, ESPECIALLY if when the flop misses you or looks scary you'll fold to a bet or raise. There are people who do that. Call when I raise with junk to steal, and then fold when I bet with junk post flop. That's CRAZY!!!

I only protect when it's obvious I'm being picked on, and then I don't care what cards I have, generally. 3rd time the button or SB raises my BB just because there's no one else in the pot, I'm going over the top either AI or for more than half his chips. THAT'S how you protect. After that he'll only raise you with quality, so you know what you're up against if he raises and can play accordingly. (That's no rule, BTW. If I have a monster stack and couldn't care less about the blind then I'll fold it all day. No ego. But if you're getting bled to death, damn right you slam the door on the SOB.)

AoKrongly,

Thanks! I used this advice today, and damn near got to the final table- it makes alot of sense, and though I finished just out of the money, believe I can use this strategy to win... Finished in the top 20 of a small (146 player) MTT..lost a coin flip situation with a very small stack. But being patient , and not getting involved when I didnt need to, took me along way!

JD

10Xbb advice is WRONG, according to me. And I'm talking about 15-20% of the combined blinds and antes here. So if the antes are $50 and the Blinds are 1000/2000, then you do the math on that.

The basic point is that people get too active with speculative hands too soon. Everyone is alternately looking for the big stack or freaking about because the blinds are getting big and they don't have it yet. They're wrong. 10xbb is wrong. And when the blinds are huge and your stack is say 5xbb, then you're pushing anyway, so what's the diff? Honestly?

anyway, I'm not looking for converts. i could be full of shit. Play your game and play it to the best of your ability. But it's 15-20% of blinds and antes that you LOOK to get very active. It doesn't mean you push over the top of an early raiser with 46s - which I'm sure you know.

Thanks boost & aok, I think it is ego getting in my way (and draining my stack). preciate the wisdom.

AoK,

I wasn't trying to question your style, as much as understand it. This is one of my problems as well. I guess I was asking more what you mean by getting active, and playing anything but monsters.

{This post has been removed}

^^^ quality.

Aokrongly,

Thanks for that! I have been using your advice and doing OK, but still have trouble getting past that money bubble man. yesterday played near three hours in a rebuy, only to get busted out getting "active" when i was down to 10K chips and the blinds at 1200 (my 88 ran into AA on SB, my push was a steal move basically, but backfired when SB turned over AA!) I have been totally camping when blinds are less than 5 percent etc, but glad you recommend occasionally jumping in at this stage, as I may have missed opportunities with hands like KQ A 10 66 Ax suited, etc, by not even limping with them. Playing one in a minute here, we'll see how it goes Wink

JD

good post

great guide! Will try it this weekend on a tourney or 2

do you think the same tactic can be applied to a SnG too?

hey tony, I just got 4th place in this 10$ fo, and I pretty much played like this, I dont know for sure why I played like this, I havent read this strat in weeks, and I dont really even like it. I dont really think its my style. However it can work beutifully. I didnt only tell my self to play tight and play smart, I actually believed it. I think thats the crucial factor in any strategy working, you MUST believe it. I was short stacked all the way throug the tournament. Rarely did I have an average stack, I think jsut after the first break I had around average. When I got ITM I had like 6k chips, I dont even know what average was at that point, but it sure as hell was more then 6k. I had about 7 times the big blind as I got itm. Typically I dont like to 'limp in the money'. However this time I didnt feel I had done this. I didnt get any oppurtunities to really get many chips earlier, and I was still around, thats a good thing I realized. I just relaxed, and let the chips come to me. 4 people handed me thier stacks, no joke. You can call that lucky if you want, but I believe that I was jsut patient enough to hit hands. And other people panic, and or completely didnt believe I hit a hand. I barely stole blinds the entire tournament. Why? it just didnt feel right, I had agressive tables, no reason to get stupid on an agressive table. I checked my stats at the final table, I think I had seen 6%, I was something like 15 of 16 won at show down and somewhere around 30 won without. 6%... I would normally laugh at that and told whatever tight ass that he cant win unless he plays some hands. I stand corrected.

Sorry for giving you so much heat buddy, I think I just took the post the wrong way, and on top of that I was just being close minded. Any sound strategy that you believe in and stick to will win you money.

eww.. min raising is not to be done. I really dont ever do it. not even with aces really.. Some people like to slow play thier aces like this, if it was raised before me Im doubling thier raise if not trippling it. I just dont see the use of minraising.

Great post man..

I've been trying to find an optimal strategy for MTT for quit some time, this sounds perfect for my style..

Niiiiice post...seriously, this has helped me big time, AOK.

On Sat, finished 3rd out of a 170 in a Party Million Qualifier, using your 5, 10, 20 % rules and stealing mentality. 1 and 2 got the seat to the real tourney Crying or Very sad

, but I got 20x payout on my buy-in in the last cash spot. 20 more buy-ins, baby! Very Happy

I've been lurking this forum for a while but now I must speak Wink

This guide is GREAT!!!!! I has really helped my game. Just after reading it I went to play a 2-table sit 'n go and followed everything I had read. I know it's directed at MTT's but I just wanted to try it out. I was chipleader when we were 8 ppl left, got pushed all in preflop when I was holding AA by JJ and lost so I was small-stacked and really in trouble. This is when the reading really helped me. I didn't tilt, just waited for the right time to make moves and ended up winning it all =D.

Thanx bigtime aokrongly

AOK, great job! Having these pre set goals of pacing ones play is a crucial element in being a succesful at any MTT. By avoiding all unneccesary situation, by the percentage rule of thumb in which you gave I can save myself alot of chips in the long run and keep my butt in the mtt for a longer extent of time.

On a quick side note.. I would usually close the tournament lobby because I did not like basing my play on my position out of my competitors in the MTT. I will now change this aspect of my game due to your post. Since I am no longer following position but blind structure the tournament window can stay open! Again, an AMAZING post. TY!! TY!! TY!!

Can someone Please STICKY THIS POST!! Very Happy

I second this thread for an edit and sticky! Great post!

doesn't need to be stickied - I'm going to keep bumping it to the top! Won my first MTT as a result of following this advice.

Is this ever going to be stickied?

If hte mods ever come along and pay enough attention to the threads, then yes, it might get stickied. Ill see if i can get someones attention.

I have been giving turbos a try. Turbo MTTs start to become total luckfest towards end of game and this strategy can seemingly never apply! IF anyone has mastered the art of turbos mtt, I will bow down and call you GOD...

Read the ripptyde sticky at the top of this forum.

mods could u please, please, please, cut all the crap out of this thread and sticky AOKs post.

Bumped for value -- I really had to search to re-find this post.

I have a question. How do you calculate where you should be when R+A's are concerned?

doesnt your site show you how many chips in total are in play and how much each place gets paid?

rebuys are crazy, generally i like it if i triple up first hour, but don't press for it. I've made a number of final tables from the minimum r/a chips after the first hour. So it's not as important as you might think. the real value in having a larger stack is that you have more time to catch cards. don't get into a big stack mentality during the first 2 hours of a r/a, think "easy come easy go". that's what generally happens. when i was watching NO ONE in the top 10 after the first hour made the final table. That's Zero. Nada. Zilch. you can loosen up during the r/a period if you want, but be prepared ot rebuy. The down side is that many people end up buying in repeatedly. Most of my final tables in r/a I didn't have to add any more money than the initial buyin plus immediate rebuy and the add-on after the first hour. Tourney were i rebuy repeately i'm generally not playing well enough to get through the field regardless of my stack after the first hour. My recommendation is to just survive and win a few pots during the first couple hours then calculate both you goal AND the time you have to get there. Generally you have tons of time during the middle and early itm in r/a. Don't get in a hurry. Late the blinds will be so huge that just stealing will be more than the "big stack" in the first hour.

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Discussion: Tools for Patience in MTT

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