Discussion thread: SnG Experiment North America Results

Post any discussion related to the SnG experiment #1

First of all: this thing is awesome.

Second: I don't think you should stop there. Did you get my note about making a wiki? It's not hard. We should try to make it easier to do more of these without having someone responsible for cutting-and-pasting for hours.

thank you saucy...i really think this is gonna help everyones game. hopefully we can get to see it on the pokerxfactor replayer

Having some trouble getting the history posted properly. Sorry for the delays.

ouch my "reads" were way off. couldnt help but laughing after reading hand 105. i was pwned.

hand 97 - caeser imo you need to push here. even if you were utg i think its still a push

I'm very glad I didn't have any Ax hands the hand that Anon limped UTG to make a set of 8s Smile

On hand 85, I think there's a bit of confusion (since the two comments state different M's). fim's M here is 1200/150 = 8. An M of 8, however, doesn't necessitate push/fold play. That's usually something that's standard for an M of 5 (or about 10xBB). With an M of 8, you're almost never getting called by anything you're ahead of here, at least in my book. I think you still have enough chips to make a standard bet here.

I freaking LOVE this “experiment” and hope we can make it a regular thing. I kind of went overboard while reading through the HH and had a lot of stuff to say. If you played in this SnG, it’d be cool if you could read through my comments and perhaps answer some of the things I am interested in.

Hand 9: Was interesting. My thoughts to you, FS, are that I think a check/raise would have been better than a bet OOP if you were thinking about outplaying me at all. Hoping to check/call was pretty much out of the question because I would never have given you the right odds. Like I said in my commentary though, I think I should have reraised more. Even if you barely had odds to call though, I don't necesssarily think it's a good play in a SnG at this point because that's how you throw away a good chunk of your stack early. Stack size is so important in tourneys, and if you miss (which you usually will when you're drawing), you are forced to play with a short stack for a long time.

14: I really like the raise by JGB here. Deciding to play LAgg in a game like this is a good idea.

15: I would rather raise K3s than limp it, NH.

18: FS, I probably bet the flop. You would have bet the river if caesar had checked, right?

20: I disagree with limping TT here ... TT is a very strong hand even at a full table. I would have raised this without a second thought.

24: Big raise preflop, curious to know your thoughts on calling here, Gator.

28: Twice in the last few hands you've open limped 77, Gator. Your thoughts on the value of raising it up 4-handed, especially when you're on the button? I think it's worthwhile to play it stronger when it's so short-handed, even if it is early.

30: What caused you to raise the turn bet, Gator? He bet 3/4 of the pot, what made you think he was weak?

31: Surprised no one bet this river. Do either of you call the river if someone bets, Gator or fimanoid?

34: Why such a big raise here, Laeelin?

35: Moose, you raised KTo UTG a few hands ago, and in this hand you limped A9o on the button. Curious to know what your thinking was.

37: I like your analysis of your play, FS.

39: haha I am entertained by all the bad hands everyone got in this hand and how it was folded to the BB in a full STT at the 20 blind level Razz

42: Nice fold, fimanoid.

43: KJ is a pretty nice hand when folded to in the SB. Too early to raise the BB here? I usually raise this because I don't feel like giving the BB a free look at the flop with any two.

48: FS, I like folding this better. Maybe if you had more chips.

56: I think I like check/raising better than leading out, fjunal, but it DOES depend on the player. I would be likely to raise your OOP bet if I'm the preflop raiser when the stacks are deep-ish because OOP bettors often fold to a raise here.

58: Interesting hand, it's really cool to read the thoughts of the people watching the play here. Feels like so much is going on at once.

63: ATs would have been a raise on the CO for me, especially because the table was fairly tight. What kind of hand are you looking to hit here by limping that, fimanoid?

65: lol ... ouch @ the AK fold. A lot of aces in hole cards here.

66: I like the raise to 200 much more than to 150. Frustrating not getting action with AA though.

67: Interesting how Moose limping with such a variety of hands brought about this hand.

72: Nice thinking fjuanl. I probably would have raised this, but I like your line better.

74: Hmmm another big ace UTG fold, interesting ...

78: Shocked

Tough spot for FS here ...

97: FS, you say that you felt it was a big risk to take, but I think it’s a perfectly fine shove. I would be pushing a lot of hands a lot worse than Q9o here, I think.

98: You need to push this, FS. A couple hands later you raised A2o from MP, and I think raising K3s on the button is a much safer play.

101: caesar, I’m a “she”, not a “he” Sad

105: Very nice hand, Laeelin.

112: Definitely push that, FS.

113: Do you push over if I raise on this button, Gator?

115: Does anyone push fjuanl’s A3o here? The table had been tight and the action was folded to him. He needs chips. I think I push this …

116: I don’t like the small raise here, Gator. It’s push or fold for me …

Dunno what happened to the hands here … I’ll wait for FS to post them and then comment if there’s anything interesting in them.

140: We ran it through and as I suspected, I should have pushed. If the blinds have calling ranges of 66+,ATs+,AJo+, then I should have been pushing hands 22+,A2+,K2+,Q2+,J2+,T2+,92+,82+,73o+,72s+,62+,52+,43o,42s+,32s … which is 97% of all the hands. Mad at myself for not pushing, I need something like this to come naturally when I’m playing. Oh well, next time I know. At least I thought about it seriously and suspected I should have pushed, it’s a start.

I know, JGB is out of my league for sure, but I plan to enter his league soon. Smile

I'm just glad he took the time for a $11 game. hehe

Also congrats to fimanoid, I think you made some stellar moves, particularly 3 handed.

Hand 45 was interesting to me too courtie, seeing as both you and JGB were thinking about "testing" the other.

you had ATs with 875 at the 50/100 level on hand 97.

the thing that stands out for me in this experiment is how often table image and knowing your opponent come into play. i also thought i had a really good idea on how some of you guys played but after looking at all the hands, i was way off. it was really interesting to hear the thought processes on some hands because it was nothing of what i expected. even after 200+ hands recorded on Poker Tracker and consistant note taking, I still didn't have accurate knowledge on most peoples games.

after noticing how wrong i was about how people would act, i starting thinking about how predicible or non-prediciable my game is. maybe i think im changing gears or playing a different style when I'm actually NOT. i sort of develped a non-written system for what hands I play in what positions, and I might have gotten to strick in following it. this is a problem because when players know exactly how you act, you lose money. fortunetly I have the luxury of playing against new people all the time, so they don't know of my nit-tendencies. but its something id definetly have to work on when playing against the same players regularly

36
isn't limping A3o asking for trouble?

37
fjuanl. did you slow down your betting on the turn to keep the pot size under control? I like your explanation of your play but am wondering specifically why 200 on the turn?

42
fimanoid, very nice read there with the minraised SB.

43
fimanoid, xray vision.

Some Additional Comments as I review the first half (93) of the hands

Hand 9 - This is a very nice battle between the two blinds and a situation where both players did a good job of reading each other's bets nicely.

With that said, I agree with Jeffrey that the call on the turn shouldn't have been made. I don't think you can even count implied odds in this as any card that shows up that would help your hand would be a scare card to Courtie. I think your line of check/call (smallish to mid bets only) is a better line than betting and calling the re-raise.

Hand 23 - Fimanoid, if you are only "pretty sure" that you have the best hand why bet the river? The pot is small and you can only beat a call by someone who thinks you are bluffing. I can see making this bet if you thought you needed to bet to win the hand, but in your case why not just check this down?

Hand 43 - Fimanoid, ,why not raise pre-flop here? Also, why not go with a check/call on the flop, then attack on the turn. I wouldn't be too afraid of the flush draw against just one opponent.

hand 55 - courtie, You have position on the original raiser and the blinds are still pretty low. At what point would you call a standard raise from the button with AQo?

Hand 71 - Anon, why not raise Courtie's bet on the turn? You have a ton of outs here so why not get some money in the pot and put a little pressure on here? Is that a bad line to take here?

Wow, this is awesome! Excellent idea Saucy, and thanks for doing all editing!

Once I get a little free time, I'll review the HH more closely, and will try to come up with some of my own questions to you guys, and also answer those about my hands.

I wonder if any outsiders have any comments on this. Apparently not, maybe if pokerxfactor gets it loaded then maybe they will. ??

I am hoping that others will read the HH and benefit from it as much as we did. I wrote a post in the beginner's forum encouraging it ...

im finding it hard to keep up with posts coz i only have access in work at the mo. my print HH off and review if i can minimise the pages.

Hand a glance over the whole thing. very tight play all round but 4-5 handed is very good.

This is class... not had a chance to go through all the HH yet but so far theres already so much to take in from this experiment.

hopefully have a few comments and questions to put forward later.

hand 78 and 83 both pots were taken down using fold equity. I have trouble working out when I have good FE etc and was wondering if anyone could explain how/when to use it!!

I know its the increase in expected value that comes from the possibility that my bet folds a better hand, but I done fully understand how to use it!! Crying or Very sad

Hand#6: FS - I think that even 5 handed raising with A weak is a mistake, since you are pretty much forced to fold to a reraise and being OOP hurts you
Hand#9: First intersting hand, FS I think you played it pretty weakly, not betting the flop and letting courtiebee take control of the hand. Part of the strength of taking the preflop initiative is
that you get respect on the flop. I dont know what CB (I will use this as shorthanded for Courtiebee if you dont mind) would have done if you C-Bet, but he has to at least consider an overpair
Your call on the flop was pretty bad I think - your only real live out are 3 J's and maybe 2 A's (the Ah is not a live out), if you checked the flop you are better of folding it.
Hand#14: Laggy play, both raising preflop OOP and betting a dangerous flop repping the A, nicely done
Hand#15: I would not raise K3 here
Hand#16: I am surprise JGB did not raise it
Hand#17: I think fjunal played it fine, as for FS - I think preflop was very good, I would not to overcommit preflop, on the flop I am tempted to just call and hope to extract more chips on the turn, but I cant fault the push with 2 spades on board
Hand#18: I think I raise PF if I was in FS's shoes. Folding the river is painful but correct FS, nice fold
Hand#20: 4 handed I think TT is worth a raise rather then taking it 3 handed
Hand#21: Wow, with those pocket cards I expected a lot more action.
Gator: raising 4 handed with KJ good, betting the flop good
Laleen: I am surprised there was no reraise preflop to see where you stand, I think it was a bit timid play for TT,I would also be tempted to call the flop bet and see what Gator does on turn
fimanoid: 4 handed I am probaly callign with AJ here, but I think folding is a valid play
Hand#23: Gator - I am curious about te turn check
Hand#25: Gator - I think calling QT OOP is a mistake, even 4 handed
Hand#26: Again I think 77 is worth a raise here, the SB is pretty likely to compelete given 5:1 pot odds, and I dont want to take 77 3 handed
Hand#28: I would raise 77 preflop 4 handed
Hand#37: Very intersting hand, If I was in FS shoes I would play it more agressively, especially with such a low flop, in this case caution saved you fomr early boot
Hand#40: Laleen - I owuld raise to about 150, you want action here
Hand#42: I dont like minraises at all, not even with AA, I raise it to 3BB and hope for action
Fiamanoid: nice fold, I am tempted to reraise here (probably due to the fact that I mostly play turbos)
Hand#55: CB - nice fold
Ceasar: I understand the merit of folding mid PP from EP and I do that a lot, but on such a tight table I limp or even raise them.
Hand#56: well palyed by both

Thats all I had time for today, rest will be covered tomorrow

Hand#57: Fimanoid - this may be a bit picky by me, but I dont think limping SC here is EV+ on such a tight passive table, it is profitable in loose passive tables, here you will rarely get paid if you hit
Hand#58: Interseting hand
Anon: Limping UTG with JJ is intersting, you are lucky you got raised here, and as you pointed out minraise was a mistake
Gator: UTG limp from a good player in a full table is always a 'danger' sign for me, I would be inclined to check and see a flop for cheap with AQ, although a raise helped you to define where you stand and shake some limpers, I would have been curious to see your line if a Q or A hits the flop
Hand#62: CB: I understand the logic of calling the PFR. I think I would reraise the flop, maybe minraise it. The reason is that unless FS has a really strong hand there are too many cards that could fall on the turn that would shut FS down and decline him from betting the turn, so the flop is probably your best chance to capitalize some more on your nut flush.
As played I would probably check the turn, although I doubt FS would put any more money in this pot unless a A hits the river.
Hand#63: Fimanoid - I think AT from the CO is worth a raise
Hand#67: First curious thing about this hand is ceasar's fold given 1:9 pot odds with one person to act
JGB - I was rather surprised to read your thought on making a play on the turn on such a coordinated board, it might have worked, but I dont think it was worth risking your stack. I am also a bit surprised by your reraise on the flop with a raise before you and two people left to act besides that, wouldn't it be better to call and try to hit your str8 ?
Hand#74: Nice fold ceasar
Hand#78: Geffery - I was very impressed with this hand, I would have just laid it down given a raise from a tight short stack from EP but you read the situation perfectly.
FS - With your stack I dont think you can afford to raise-fold TT here, if you are not willing to play it for stacks you a better of limping I think
Hand#87: Well palyed by all
Hand#96: CB - I think raising low PP from UTG is asking for trouble
Hand#100: I personally hate raising A2 since it is dominated by any PP or Ax, and is flipping vs any other hand, I much rather push any two middle cards
Hand#109: Good push FS, with the blidns coming up it is a decent hand to push
Hand#112: FS - I think that with M=3 you have to push any hand thats folded to you
Hand#115: Fimanoid - I think your reasoning is correct, stealing from EP twice in a row with mediocare hands is asking for trouble
Hand#116: Fjunal - with your stack A8 is probably a hand I push here, it is probably the lowest Ax I push
Hand#119: Gator - with your stack I fold this, you can afford to wait for a hand when you open the pot, especially since CB was laying low for a while
Hand#121: Laleen - I fold this, again, two easily dominated, very few hands you are ahead of
Hand#123: CB - As you said, leading here was not a great move, but you could afford it
Fjunal - just unlucky I guess, I dont think you can fold it
Fimanoid - Slowplaying A's has its merit sometimes, but I dont think this is the spot for it, I prefer to raise and see what happens, especially since there were so few limps lately it looks suspicious

more thoughts on the game

Hand 100 - I don't think I push here. You still have a few hands before the blinds hit and your 2 is practically worthless if you get called. You also have the other shortstack in the BB who's calling range could be fairly wide.

Hand 105 - I am not sure I would have had the guts to make that move from EP with 97o.

Hand 118 -

GJB wrote:

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Discussion thread: SnG Experiment North America Results

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Discussion thread: SnG Experiment North America Results