Discussion: DavSimon's SnG Strategy Guide

RE: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8202

I smell the beginnings of another great strategy post, keep it going dav Very Happy

......

{Edited and split by Xianti}

I LIKE.

Dav I am very glad you have made a post specifically referring to SnGs, FTR needed one. Good job and keep up the good work man!

This is gonna be great.

Keep it coming, I like your methods, and I like your style.

Great start Dav, been looking forward to this.

Xianti, any possiblity of this being split up into a topic/discussion thread like the others?

awesome man! This is the one thing I have been waiting for ^^ it cant be more accurate because I just blew a little roll trying to play where you are. Make this one really creamy.

I just made a mess in my pants at the idea of this.

I need to do laundry.

-'rilla

I play the same exact way and have success. I look forward to more content so I can see where we differ or concur.

I play very tight until I get down to 3 people (unless I have a big stack and call some small stack AI when I have Ax or better). Once I"m down to 3, I liike to raise almost everything (same amount) for three reasons. One, the blinds are higher and people have to pay to play. Two, if both opponents are in and you fold, they will fight over the larger pot and know eachother out. Three, they never know the strength of your starting hand.

I got a little ahead...sorry for the post highjack. I started to think about where you were headed. I'll wait. Good start though.

Nice post! Keep it coming!

Excellent post. I was doing the whole "limp to catch a big hand" and I found myself in the same problems you described. looking forward to more posts

Great article. I can't wait to read more.

You hit the nail on the head...I like SNGs because there is minimal investment for a big(ger) payout. Plus, it hones my skills for MTTs.

Keep the articles coming.

Excellent post Dav. As a player who is focussing on SnG play at the moment, I found this a great read.

I have also been to-ing and fro-ing between the limp-and-see early approach and the "tight is right" and can't seem to find my niche. Was good to see what u had to say.

I just finish reading sections 2 and 3. Your a very good writer. The advice all rings true, and comes across smoothly. If you were to clean up the grammatical errors, this could be something fit for publication.

Please note, I'm not knocking you at all here... just offering some constructive critism. Please keep going with the project. Don't let my comment slow the creative process, but perhaps have someone go over it once you are through. A second pair of eyes can make a big difference.

-Spook

P.S. If you like, I'd be happy to PM you with specifics.

Spook, and anyone else please give me your suggestions. I am not a very technical writer, I write as I would speak....kind of stream of consciousness style. That is why I use several periods in place of commas on occasion to emphasize pauses and breaks. If there are things that I can change to make the material more interesting or understandale I am all for it. Thank you for the feedback thus far. -Dave

Would you prefer them in PM's or added here?

I suppose PM would be the best option since it would limit the "clutter" here in the discussion thread.

Aww... He called me his friend.

Heart

-'rilla

great post
here is one subject i hope you adress later the difference betwen 6handed sng and 10 handed sng since i feel there is a quit big difference at least at the lower buy ins where i play5,5 to 22 buy ins.

keep it going waitng for your next post

I was asked a question, over the PM system and figured I should address the concern here.

All good so far, just one point from me...

Though i've mentioned this elsewhere and i feel like some VC stooge, you can find SNG's for much less than $5 at VCPoker, i created my bankroll from scratch playing 10c,25c,50c,$1 SNG's and there are similarly cheap MTT's. People who only want to invest $20 will get loads of value playing these, and the competition aren't too hot either. Maybe worth a mention at some point.

I have accounts at about 12 different sites although I have never played at VCPoker, the smallest SnGs I have run across were the $5 variety.

If you have major budget constraints and are wanting to play poker and tornament poker at that....then the microlimit SnGs would be a great way to go, just as microlimit ring games are a good starting point. It would give the beginning player some "exposure" to the SnG tournament, so that they can begin developing thier skills.....thanks for mentioning it Legendash.

Great stuff so far and looking forward to further posts. Often wondered why people like yourself, Soupie, Rada, Rippy, Rilla etc. take the time and effort to write such good articles for the benefit of our fellow FTR members(much thanks BTW).

I think and hope that the clarification and focus on your thoughts are good for the writer as well. Also, presenting ideas can of course lead to further discussion, even disagreement which leads to even greater insight and perhaps adapting of strategy and general approach. In that light, I would like to respond more than in the past to some of the insightful and thought provoking threads such as this one. I certainly encourage others to do/continue to do the same (even some of my fellow semi-lurkers).

Here are some thoughts on the game variety/selection topic.

I agree that the 6 max can in fact be more of a crap shoot. Another point is that if a common playing error is -playing too many hands- it seems that 6 max is more forgiving in this regard. In other words people who are too loose with hand selection are perhaps punished more in the 10-20 player standard SnGs. This means solid play is rewarded.

For 10 handed then, I also prefer 2-3 table SnGs for several reasons...

Perhaps with 20-30 initial players there is a greater potential that you will see more weak players who contribute to the prize pool but have little chance of winning. There is a likelyhood that the bigger payday attracts a higher % of weak players but maybe it is a sheer number thing.

Also, as DavSimon points out the 2-3 table games go through various stages of being full-short. The varying of strategy or shifting gears as things develop adds complexity to decision making for optimum play. I believe this benefits the player who adapts as the game goes from full to short to final table-full to end game short again. Adapting your play to your stack size thoughout these stages is of course another advantage over opponents who either don't adapt or do so poorly.

Hope to provoke further discussion and am interested in the comments of others on play quality of 2-3 table versus single table.

I would like to put out one thing for the tight is right attitude. Extrememly tight is right. First bit of a tourney I play nothing but pocket pairs. Establishes a beautiful table image and gets me into less trouble early with the miracle players. Very Happy

'tight is right' seems to be a good starting tactic but when do people start to loosen up? When blinds are level 3/4 etc or when you are right down to the bubble?

It would be really good to get input from some of the more aggresive players out there (Rippy, Rada ....?) since these guys seem to crank up the aggression early so that by the time they hit the bubble - they are ALREADY dominating the table with a large stack and pushing people around. Or am I misunderstanding their strategy??

Sed's point of letting the table determine when to shift gears is a good one. In addition, if you are looking for a general guideline, I like to play more aggressive when the BB reaches 10% or more of my initial starting stack. This gives some value to a blind steel.

Just to clarify topics, discussions and even disagreements should definately be discussed in this "discussion thread" The question you have may be one that someone else has as well and just has not articulated it yet. The only reason I wanted Spook to PM me was because he was going to quote large sections of the main documents and I figured it would clutter things up having so much of the main guide in the discussion thread.

Of course if you need some personal or specific advice that you would rather not be public feel free to PM me -Dave

Hey Dav (and everyone else!)

Just thought I would pitch in with a bit on the player notes bit and people can do with them what they like.

I can safely say from experience that taking player notes has helped my game lately. I still see some notes where I have obviously just taken a bad beat or some dumbass has just busted my UTG Kings with crappy QTo and my notes simply read “Mug” and it gives me a chuckle for a few seconds. However, as Dav mentioned in his main post, as amusing as they are, they don’t really serve a purpose unless you can remember precisely which hand he acted like that on which prompted you to take those notes in the first place!

Anyway ……

I have sometimes found it difficult to keep notes and keep my head in the game all at the same time. Or sometimes I just find myself overly focussing on a few players and ignoring others – then you are suddenly faced with a big decision against one of these “mystery” players and it’s tough.

I cannot stress how much taking player notes has helped though. I have had decisions against players that I have played before and taken notes on made for me solely on the strength of my notes.

However, I have found that some of my best notes have come sometime AFTER I have finished the SnG. I have lately taken some time to reassess my performances a couple of days after I have played. It gives you an opportunity to look back at certain hands and think “I should have bet the turn”, “Why did I get involved in this hand”, “I wish I could stop bleeding money out of the blinds calling with crap and hoping for miracles”. But, crucially, I have found that this allows for much clearer and honest assessment of your own play and for note taking on others (it also avoids the potential for ‘tilt comments’ like “Player A is a complete turd” that u might make immediately after your Aces have been nobbled by 74s hitting a flush despite the ridiculous pot-odds).

The other reason I analyse after the event is that, when u are playing in the SnG this happens ……

You are focussing on a Player A …
OK, he’s limped in from middle position …
He bets on the K74 rainbow flop …
Q comes on the turn and he checks …
2 on the river and he bets …
Other player calls and flips KQ …
you are waiting for confirmation at the showdown that Player A has something like 56 and …………

BAM! ...... Player A mucks their losing cards!

Were you right or not?! You are probably close, but who knows?! At least when u go back through the HH’s after the fact, you get to see PRECISELY what Player A laid down (his bottom pair, his busted inside–straight? his busted flush? his total bluff?!).

It is also useful to pick up on things that even the most ardent observer may well miss. I have been noting with interest that Player Y plays an awful lot of pots, but always seems to lay them down to a bet. Player X will play any two connecting cards from any position. Stuff that can just pass you by or you notice once because they hit the straight and he shows them down, but you haven’t noticed the three other times he’s mucked them at showdown when they’re beat.

I think the crucial thing, though, is finding a noting system that you will understand. My personal method is to make notes on what TYPE of cards a player plays and from what position etc, do they limp or bet, do they chase against the odds, how well do they understand the concept of position, the general kind of thing, but I also like to give those reads a score. The higher the score, the stronger the read. Usually this is based simply on how many times I see a certain player doing such-and-such play.

Anyway, that’s it. Feel free to question, critique, massacre (!) at will…..

Quick question Staresy,
You mention that where you play the hand history shows mucked cards? I haven't seen that in other histories, so I'm curious.
thanks,
-dunk

hey Dunk

I play at PokerRoom.

Although, just to confirm, when it says it shows mucked hands, I just means that it shows the cards that are mucked at showdown. It doesn't show cards that are mucked pre- or post- flop or on the turn. Sorry, if I gave that impression.

Thanks for taking the time to write this guide, Dav. Very informative to me as I prefer SNGs.

Don't know if you can cover this but do you multi-table SNGs, and if so how do you keep up with them all and how is that different from multi-tabling ring? I've gotten more comfortable multi-tabling ring, especially when bonus-whoring, but I tend to want to pay closer attention in SNGs.

Section 6 is a breath of fresh air for me, Dav. I have a bankroll $850...there's no reason for me to be playing $10 sng's when I know I can beat the $20 ones. It's amazing what a bad run of cards will do to your mind...

*Last edited by DavSimon on Wed, 16 Mar 2005, 6:31pm; edited 1 time in total*

Well here's some background Dav, I started with a free $2 at Paradise, won that up to 300 dollars. That took half a year. When I checked out PokerStars I decided I really liked the sng structure better there. I moved there 3 weeks ago. In three weeks I increased my BR to 900. I thought to myself, "this is ridiculous, I'm moving up." So I tried the 20 dollars and suffered a horrible streak of cards. I moved back down and started doing well again. I'm convinced that it was just the cards, though. I'm gonna give the $20 ones another shot.

Id just like to thank you for taking the time out to write this up. I have been playing mostly 5$ 1 tables since I started playing poker in october of '04, and occationally Ive mixed in some 25NL. Ive busted my bankroll of 50$ over and over, and I just did not understand it, thanks to FTR I am starting to learn Bankroll Management skills, and I am improving my game 10 fold. recently I quit my job to move to another state, that failed and now I am back home jobless with a small bankroll, but this time I am taking it very seriously and finally I am showing some consistent BR growth:

date.....itm/sngsplayed
3/16...........3/4...........1st:1 2nd:1 3rd: 1

3/17...........4/7...........1st:1 2nd:2 3rd:1

3/18...........4/7...........1st: 2nd:1 3rd:3

As you can see I have just started to keep track of my play, this is something I strongly recomend for anyone playing sngs.

Section 8 - on mental state/focus is PRICELESS !! Applause

Dav, this is the one of the best and deepest pieces of poker advice I have ever seen. Everyone should read this and think about it. These issues apply to all aspects of life - work and play - but it obviously applies to poker too. I just hadn't thought of it that way until you pointed it out. Very Happy

Boost that is great...very nice stats, try to keep a daily log or diary of things you did well or poorly each day to go along with the stats you keep. That way you can look back over your previous sessions to see if you are make the same mistakes or all new ones Wink

DBL0SVN - thank you for the high praise! Sometimes I think I come off too preachy...but there are things I feel very strongly about and that is the only way I know how to express it.

yah I seem to get in ruts where I lose a fare amount, like 7 in a row, then I pop out of it and win like 10 in a row placing first in about half. Im trying to figure if I am playing solid and just am getting bad runs, or if I play really well, then fall off, then play really well, and go into a cycle.

I think its the second one. I think I do very well, and then I kinda get lazy, or over confident?

On the subject of multi-tabling...

Whilst playing a SNG (usually a $20 two-tabler), I also play two ring tables at $50 NL. I play both the ring games extremely tightly, basically just waiting for premium hands. This allows me to concentrate mainly on the SNG, but also alleviates the boredom - SNG's can be very slow early on. Once the pace starts to hot up, I dump one of the SNG's. When the pace slows down again (the two tables have been combined), I will join another ring game. I will then drop the ring games depending on my progress i.e I will probably have dropped both by the time I reach the last three in the SNG.
Using this approach, I generally find that I have earned the entrance fee for the SNG at the ring games. Also, by playing the ring games so tightly, I find that I have plenty of time for analysing the play in the SNG and reading/writing notes on the other players.

Dav, thank you very, very much for your posts - I am finding your advice both invaluable and valuable, if you see what I mean!

Boostnslide, I had your problem too. I've found that trying to stay focused and staying tight until the late stages has helped me get over it.

Example...$5+0.50 SNG, down to four players. Top 3 pays. I have $200-300, blinds are $100 and other three players are sitting on ~$2500 each. By keeping tight, playing good hands and semi-bluffing (i.e. AI on top pair post-flop) I stayed in the game for 10 minutes. In the meantime, two big stacks wiped each other out and I finished 2nd!

Another good tip in this position is...take your time! Use all of your time and you WILL put others on tilt through frustration.

Thanks Davsimon for the tips. I've only been playing for 6 weeks and they've helped no end. I've picked up the game quickly and always showed a profit (ITM ~40%, ROI 25%). I think reading your posts has re-inforced some ideas that I knew I SHOULD have been doing , but didn't always. Over the past 30 $5+0.50 SNGs I've managed ITM ~65% and 150% ROI. Again, THANKS!!! It's nearly time for $10+1 as my bankroll of $0 has grown to $150.

yah I definately need to work on tilting, Im getting better, sngs I normally brush it off just fine, I hate it more though when Im itm but only get 3rd or 2nd when I am constantly outplaying them, but things just aretn working out. but even so I dont worry too much. My tilt problems come from MTT's I think. So much time invested, and one bad play or bad beat takes you down. However I am working on this too.

DavSimon, thanks for a great post. I think it was very well written. I enjoyed how you also shared some of your philosophy as it applies to poker and life in general. Very Happy

I was just wondering if you could post a few examples of the player notes you have on people. I try to take notes but find that those I take are lacking in any real insight. I think a real example or two could help me out.

Thanks.

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Discussion: DavSimon's SnG Strategy Guide

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Discussion: DavSimon's SnG Strategy Guide