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Did I kill my action here?

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Danh Bai
Post Posted: Mon, 29 Sep 2008, 12:32pm    Post subject: Did I kill my action here? Reply with quote
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Should I just call here next time?

Seat 2: KILL*** (107.65 in chips)
Seat 3: SMD1*** (57.45 in chips)
Seat 4: remp*** (73.00 in chips)
Seat 5: Word*** (47.05 in chips)
Seat 6: TGAN*** (19.50 in chips)
Seat 7: dubo*** (40.45 in chips)
Seat 8: Hero (39.45 in chips)
Seat 9: Bobb*** (26.20 in chips)
Seat 10: Buen*** (71.70 in chips)
Buen***: posts small blind $0.25
KILL***: posts big blind $0.50
Dealt to Hero[ Kh Ks ]
SMD1***: folds
remp***: folds
Word***: folds
TGAN***: raises to $1.50
dubo***: folds
Hero: raises to $2.50
Bobb***: folds
Buen***: folds
KILL***: folds
TGAN***: folds
Hero: returns uncalled bet $1
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Hero: mucks
Hero wins $3.75
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yourfather
Post Posted: Mon, 29 Sep 2008, 12:42pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Raise more pretty much all the time. I make it like 4.50-5.
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XxStacksxX
Post Posted: Mon, 29 Sep 2008, 1:02pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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No you shouldn't just call here. Just because he folded this time doesn't mean you shouldn't have raised. Your hand is a premium hand, and you want to get money in, so you need to raise in order to do that.
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Squeaky_Midget1
Post Posted: Mon, 29 Sep 2008, 1:24pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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-Calling=Pricing in big blind with suited connectors

-Once he's priced in and flops a straight to your over pair you proceed to go on monkey tilt and donk off your roll

-After you go bust you throw your mouse across the room and break your girlfriends fathers urn

-Shes sees it and you blame it on the cat

-She puts the disobedient cat to sleep

Unless you want innocent kitties to die, reraise


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spoonitnow
Post Posted: Mon, 29 Sep 2008, 3:38pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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The fact that you posted this shows that you have a very results-oriented mindset in the first place. It's something to keep in mind when you consider your own approach to learning.

As played, part of the point of 3-betting here is to make it -EV for someone to call with a weaker hand by giving them bad implied odds. If you make a weiner raise then he (not to mention everyone else still left in the hand) have great implied odds because of the price and the fact that they know you have a stronger than usual hand and will stack off against them more often.
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DaddyDeez
Post Posted: Mon, 29 Sep 2008, 8:32pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Is it possible this guy had a read on u cuz u normally min raise KK+? Dont min raise, don't be results oriented. By min raising this u gave him good odds to call u down with PP's and SC's and if he hit the flop he would easily stack you. simply because u min raised him preflop with KK.

make it atleast 3-4x from now on.
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Danh Bai
Post Posted: Mon, 29 Sep 2008, 8:33pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Thanks for the replies.

spoonitnow wrote:
The fact that you posted this shows that you have a very results-oriented mindset in the first place. It's something to keep in mind when you consider your own approach to learning.

As played, part of the point of 3-betting here is to make it -EV for someone to call with a weaker hand by giving them bad implied odds. If you make a weiner raise then he (not to mention everyone else still left in the hand) have great implied odds because of the price and the fact that they know you have a stronger than usual hand and will stack off against them more often.


Spoonit, so you're saying i should have made a bigger re-raise? Some of your a post is a bit over my head...
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bigspenda73
Post Posted: Mon, 29 Sep 2008, 8:37pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Dahn Bai, what hands do you typically re-raise with?
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spoonitnow
Post Posted: Mon, 29 Sep 2008, 8:45pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Danh Bai wrote:
Thanks for the replies.

spoonitnow wrote:
The fact that you posted this shows that you have a very results-oriented mindset in the first place. It's something to keep in mind when you consider your own approach to learning.

As played, part of the point of 3-betting here is to make it -EV for someone to call with a weaker hand by giving them bad implied odds. If you make a weiner raise then he (not to mention everyone else still left in the hand) have great implied odds because of the price and the fact that they know you have a stronger than usual hand and will stack off against them more often.


Spoonit, so you're saying i should have made a bigger re-raise? Some of your a post is a bit over my head...

Yes.
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Danh Bai
Post Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 7:25am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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bigspenda73 wrote:
Dahn Bai, what hands do you typically re-raise with?

KJ, KQ, A10-AK
pocket pairs TT-AA
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iopq
Post Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 8:10am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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you RE-RAISE with those hands?
pokerstove KJ vs. my raising range
my raising range from MP:
any pp
AJ+
ATs+
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Danh Bai
Post Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 9:26am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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iopq wrote:
you RE-RAISE with those hands?

Sorry, misread that. No, I RAISE with those, not re-raise. Re-raise w/kk,aa or maybe ak - but for the most part i've just been raising or calling a raise with them.
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iopq
Post Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 11:35am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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lol, you flat QQ?
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XxStacksxX
Post Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 11:59am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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iopq wrote:
lol, you flat QQ?


lol, you think that's a horrible idea?

Given, possibly at the micros, and against some opponents you'd be better off 3betting, but flatting QQ is some instances (and sometimes most instances) is not a bad thing.
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iopq
Post Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 12:06pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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XxStacksxX wrote:
iopq wrote:
lol, you flat QQ?


lol, you think that's a horrible idea?

Given, possibly at the micros, and against some opponents you'd be better off 3betting, but flatting QQ is some instances (and sometimes most instances) is not a bad thing.


PokerStove shows we're ahead of a villain who raises 99+,AQs+,AKo (4%)
You're simply missing value by flatting QQ
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XxStacksxX
Post Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 12:15pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Pokerstove doesn't take into account villain's 3bet calling range. When you 3bet you are either A) Doing it for value willing to stack off preflop, or B) doing it as a bluff, intending to either fold to a 4b or 5b bluff yourself.

Most villains (especially at micros) don't 4b bluff. Therefore, a 4b from them means they have a rather tight range (KK+, AK). QQ doesn't do too well against that range, so if you 3bet and get 4b you will probably do good to fold. Therefore, you just turned QQ into a 3b bluff. And QQ is way too good of a hand to bluff with. You would have been better off 3bet bluffing with a hand that is not profitable to call with, such as weak suited aces.

DUC what I'm trying to say?
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iopq
Post Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 12:36pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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No, we didn't turn it into a 3b bluff because we're expecting him to flat our 3b because your regular villain at microstakes loves to call. Usually a bluff entails not being ahead when called.
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Muzzard
Post Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 12:46pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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No stacks, he doesn't really see what you are trying to say. I don't wanna type a lot on this subject right now so I'll keep it simple.

we are losing tonnes of post flop EV by three betting QQ preflop in a lot of situations in FR.
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iopq
Post Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 12:57pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Not against an opponent who calls a 3-bet with the majority of his raising range.
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XxStacksxX
Post Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 1:02pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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iopq wrote:
No, we didn't turn it into a 3b bluff because we're expecting him to flat our 3b because your regular villain at microstakes loves to call. Usually a bluff entails not being ahead when called.


If this was the lowest of micros I would see your point. I wouldn't be against felting QQ preflop against most opponents say below 25nl. But at 25nl+, the villains become a little more competent. And they generally understand that if they call this 3bet they will be playing a big pot, that will easily put their entire stack at risk, out of position. Therefore, most villains aren't going to be calling too incredibly light.*

Therefore, by 3betting QQ when we will have a positional advantage, and there is a good chance it will be a HU pot (like we want), then we are narrowing the villains range to hands that we don't fare too well against.

To try to sum it up, I believe 3betting QQ is +ev. However, I believe it is more +ev (in most instances) to just call with QQ.

* Things such as maniac opponents, multiple people calling the initial raise, history, position of raiser, or being oop, should play factors in whether you are 3betting or just flatting. But as a standard if an Unkown opens in EP, and it's folded to me in LP, I would generally just call with QQ. Because his range is already rather tight.
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XxStacksxX
Post Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 1:06pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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iopq wrote:
Not against an opponent who calls a 3-bet with the majority of his raising range.


Most opponents aren't calling a 3b with the majority of their raising range though.
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Muzzard
Post Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 1:09pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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we are focusing too much on preflop here.

Postflop is where the money is made and by not 3betting pre we can make more money than we can if we 3bet pre in given situation.

Obviously there are some situations where 3betting QQ pre is good/more +EV, whatever. But on the whole I think you can make more money postflop if you flat it.

But what do me and stacks know, right?
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iopq
Post Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 3:09pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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XxStacksxX wrote:
iopq wrote:
Not against an opponent who calls a 3-bet with the majority of his raising range.


Most opponents aren't calling a 3b with the majority of their raising range though.
Stakes/site dependent
at 2NL yes, at 100NL I hope not

I have a shitty sample, but I have people calling my 3bet with :Kh: :Th:, :Tc: :Ts: in NL25
I'd be shocked if you told me that in my game against an unknown 3-betting QQ is EV-

also someone that's 30/20 wouldn't be calling my 3bet with the majority of their raising range, but if they call with the top QUARTER of their range I'm still ahead
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Muzzard
Post Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 8:04pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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iopq wrote:
XxStacksxX wrote:
iopq wrote:
Not against an opponent who calls a 3-bet with the majority of his raising range.


Most opponents aren't calling a 3b with the majority of their raising range though.
Stakes/site dependent
at 2NL yes, at 100NL I hope not

I have a shitty sample, but I have people calling my 3bet with King of Hearts Ten of Hearts, Ten of Clubs Ten of Spades in NL25
I'd be shocked if you told me that in my game against an unknown 3-betting QQ is EV-

also someone that's 30/20 wouldn't be calling my 3bet with the majority of their raising range, but if they call with the top QUARTER of their range I'm still ahead


I give up, ur totally missing the fucking point. This is why ppl find you annoying, coz u just argue with respected members such as stacks - you don't actually take on board anything they say.

READ, ABSORB, RESPOND

You starting playing NL about 2months ago, so don't act like you know it all.

THINK ABOUT POSTFLOP EV FOR THE 3RD TIME
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spoonitnow
Post Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 8:28pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Stacks has only been playing NL for like 4-5 months.
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Muzzard
Post Posted: Wed, 01 Oct 2008, 7:50am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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spoonitnow wrote:
Stacks has only been playing NL for like 4-5 months.


Well he's learnt his shit fast then and he's willing to listen to others.
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iopq
Post Posted: Wed, 01 Oct 2008, 4:55pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Muzzard wrote:
iopq wrote:
XxStacksxX wrote:
iopq wrote:
Not against an opponent who calls a 3-bet with the majority of his raising range.


Most opponents aren't calling a 3b with the majority of their raising range though.
Stakes/site dependent
at 2NL yes, at 100NL I hope not

I have a shitty sample, but I have people calling my 3bet with :Kh: :Th:, :Tc: :Ts: in NL25
I'd be shocked if you told me that in my game against an unknown 3-betting QQ is EV-

also someone that's 30/20 wouldn't be calling my 3bet with the majority of their raising range, but if they call with the top QUARTER of their range I'm still ahead


I give up, ur totally missing the fucking point. This is why ppl find you annoying, coz u just argue with respected members such as stacks - you don't actually take on board anything they say.

READ, ABSORB, RESPOND

You starting playing NL about 2months ago, so don't act like you know it all.

THINK ABOUT POSTFLOP EV FOR THE 3RD TIME
Yes, I don't get it, so why aren't you explaining it better to me? I still don't see wtf.

OK, say opponent calls with 88. The flop is K52 rainbow. He checks. I check behind. Turn is a brick. He shoots a 2/3 PSB. I call. He checks river. I check behind. Value extracted.

QQ plays fine post-flop. I also feel I have an edge post-flop. That's probably the best argument is that the deeper we are post-flop the higher my edge is.

Here's a problem though, if i flat pre-flop and I have an overpair, doesn't that mean I should raise the flop? So if I flop an overpair I'm getting the same amount of money in as if I 3-bet and c-bet the flop. Or do I flat the flop too? Since I don't play QQ this way, you tell me what the plan for our hand is.
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bigspenda73
Post Posted: Wed, 01 Oct 2008, 6:16pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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oh hi, thank you all for missing my point
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