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deepish river bluff vs solid reg

  
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meeloche
Post Posted: Sat, 04 Jul 2009, 4:32pm    Post subject: deepish river bluff vs solid reg Reply with quote
2009
2009

Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 1658
WPP: 65
Location: bluffing scare cards
Villain is a winning 5/10 regular with stats in the neighborhood of 26/20. We don't really have any relevant history.

Note: The blinds are both fish that are not squeeze happy.

Thoughts?

No-Limit Hold'em, $10.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Hero (UTG) ($1903.25)
MP ($1050)
CO ($1937)
Button ($1806.50)
SB ($1038.50)
BB ($1254)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, J
Hero bets $35, 2 folds, Button calls $35, 2 folds

Flop: ($85) 3, 5, A (2 players)
Hero bets $60, Button calls $60

Turn: ($205) A (2 players)
Hero bets $170, Button calls $170

River: ($545) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $240, Hero raises $888
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griffey24
Post Posted: Sat, 04 Jul 2009, 5:10pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
4-of-a-Kind
4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 3308
WPP: 87
Location: Toronto'ish
I like this... but only with a good image and knowing he's capable of folding
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IowaSkinsFan
Post Posted: Sat, 04 Jul 2009, 5:21pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Almost as bad as that idiot redgrape
Almost as bad as that idiot redgrape

Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 6596
WPP: 74

I feel like this is AQ/AJ a lot. I think its an interesting range spot because he can have a lot of hands that he will bet/call thats worse on the river when we check, like AQ-ATs, AK sometimes if they are nitty. But I doubt he bets like tt-66. I think c/r anything im planning on continuing with is good and c/f the rest is the best line.
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mcatdog
Post Posted: Sat, 04 Jul 2009, 6:45pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
4-of-a-Kind
4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 3556
WPP: 112
Location: at your tables, calling your bets
IowaSkinsFan wrote:
I feel like this is AQ/AJ a lot. I think its an interesting range spot because he can have a lot of hands that he will bet/call thats worse on the river when we check, like AQ-ATs, AK sometimes if they are nitty.


You realize we have two pair, aces and queens right?

Meeloche - I think for this bluff to be good he has to be both not 3-betting AK preflop, and bet-folding it on this river. Otherwise there just aren't enough trips in his range that he could conceivably bet-fold to make up for the times he snaps you off with a boat. Both of those assumptions about how he plays AK, both seem somewhat unlikely to me, and for them to both be true is a huge stretch.

Personally I get FPS pretty often and try to bluff regs when their hand is face up as a pretty big hand that isn't the nuts but I think this is a really bad spot for it. I'd just check-fold.
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griffey24
Post Posted: Sat, 04 Jul 2009, 6:54pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
4-of-a-Kind
4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 3308
WPP: 87
Location: Toronto'ish
I feel like people flat suited aces on the button, even to an UTG open....

I could be mistaken though. I know I'm flatting some/ a lot of suited aces here, though that may be spew in itself.
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Alexos
Post Posted: Sun, 05 Jul 2009, 12:02am    Post subject: Reply with quote
4-of-a-Kind
4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 1915
WPP: 60
Location: Montreal
Yea the answer to this question is two ways, how many Ax hands does he play on the BTN (more is better) meaning he'd have less boats in his range. And 2), whats the likelihood of him folding them (well mostly AJ/AT)?

If he's a nit that will play only AJ+ to an utg raise, then this is obv bad because he only folds .. AJ in this spot.
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meeloche
Post Posted: Sun, 05 Jul 2009, 12:35am    Post subject: Reply with quote
2009
2009

Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 1658
WPP: 65
Location: bluffing scare cards
I feel like he can definitely have AK here along with a decent amount of suited aces.

I also expect him not to put very many if any bluffs in my range once I c/r the river.
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meeloche
Post Posted: Sun, 05 Jul 2009, 12:39am    Post subject: Reply with quote
2009
2009

Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 1658
WPP: 65
Location: bluffing scare cards
I also think his sizing is interesting. I don't think he's betting smallish to induce so is his betsize related to the strength of his hand or how how weakish my hand looks?
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Irisheyes
Post Posted: Sun, 05 Jul 2009, 2:57am    Post subject: Reply with quote
4-of-a-Kind
4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 3659
WPP: 76
Location: over there
I think I would check this turn, he doesn't have much air he can fold and lots of the hands that will call you (99 etc) will let you see the river for free. They also might fold the river once they check back because you can rep 99-KK pretty well

As for the river, if he has like A6s it's a nasty spot for him all right but just off the top of my head I feel like the ratio of hands that call vs hands that will fold is too big.
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pocketfours
Post Posted: Sun, 05 Jul 2009, 8:58am    Post subject: Reply with quote
One Pair
One Pair

Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 947
WPP: 87

His bet looks a lot like he wants to give you an opportunity to bluff, so I'm not terribly happy with the raise. You would probably c/r with the nuts here a lot so can't say it's bad either.
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nutsinho
Post Posted: Wed, 22 Jul 2009, 6:26pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
midstakes donk
midstakes donk

Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 2979
WPP: 43
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
this is really bad poker. your range for c/r the river here unless he is way loose preflop is exactly AQ and bluffs, and your perceived range for check-calling in this spot is nonexistant. most players are going to understand this somewhat and frequently call you whether theyve got a nut hand or just trips after deciding on a bet.
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reDZill4
Post Posted: Thu, 27 Aug 2009, 6:03am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Strike 1
Strike 1

Joined: 30 Oct 2007
Posts: 505
WPP: 63

nutsinho wrote:
this is really bad poker. your range for c/r the river here unless he is way loose preflop is exactly AQ and bluffs, and your perceived range for check-calling in this spot is nonexistant. most players are going to understand this somewhat and frequently call you whether theyve got a nut hand or just trips after deciding on a bet.


so hes never c/c this river and his c/r is the nuts or air. so hes basically only ever c/f this river. so you dislike the turn barrel im assuming? if so what is your alternate turn line?
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iopq
Post Posted: Thu, 27 Aug 2009, 12:58pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Strike 3
Strike 3

Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 5869
WPP: 52

I would dislike barrelling the turn because whatever he calls the flop with he probably calls the turn with

if he thinks we have tons of aces in our range and that we cbet QQ/KK he should really just fold flop with like TT
but if he calls with TT he shouldn't be discouraged with the turn card since it knocked out a lot of ace combinations and we should check our QQ/KK back because there is no way we're getting three streets of value
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gabe
Post Posted: Wed, 02 Sep 2009, 3:07pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
EAT BUGS
EAT BUGS

Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 7835
WPP: 52
Location: trying to live
u gotta bet the turn, river is trying too hard
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ESS123
Post Posted: Fri, 11 Sep 2009, 2:29pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
High Card
High Card

Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Posts: 9
WPP: 47

I agree that your value range is too narrow for this bluff to work.
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