Comments: Bankroll Management 101. Important to new players.

{Comments on http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4971}

Good post `rilla. I'd just like to emphasize the fact that you should be comfortable having losses within the realm of your game. The number of BB's and buyin ratios can be a general guideline. However, I think that the real importance is that if you get cleaned out 3 games in a row (bad playing, beats, whatever) you're not going to lose sleep over it. That's the importance of BR management and you will not find a more important skill.

I understand the 10-20 buyin for nl ring games and the 10-15 buyin for SnG and the MTT 30x+ idea. But what if you want to play all of these?

If I want to play 25$ NL, 20$ SnG and 10$ MTTs do I need a $750-1100 BR or Is it just the idea that you limit your buyin for any game to the appropriate percentage of your stack. IE to play a NL table don't join unless 5-10% of your stack is greater than the max buyin. So really one could comfortably play all these with a 400$ BR?

no eating my banana -rilla!

- sed

You can have 300 BB for limit and have that be the same exact bankroll for NL and for your MTT experience. Like you said, just don't risk more than 10% of your bankroll on any given day.

-'rilla

just to be conservative, it wouldn't hurt to recommend 5% risk for the beginner.

Done!

-'rilla

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooops

I would also like to note. Toastee and some other short handed limit players were discussing the horribly fun swings of 6max limit. Toastee considered boosting the BR to 500BB noting that 100BB swings might not be too uncommon. I was merely an observer.

-'rilla

Is a 340BB swing uncommon? After making 1300$ in the last week of play winning 7 consecutive days i now lost 340$ in 4 hours of play.

I got 3xAA, KK, QQ all cracked in big pots among other very unfortunate hands. Its like as today the only thing i can get is trap hands.

*spits water on computer screen*

*sips and rereads*

*spits water on computer screen*

I sincerly hope not.

-'rilla

You'll thank me after you experience your first big downswing. You can easily drop your entire bankroll in one week of bad play, tilt and bad cards. Also when 1 buyin is 1/7th your whole bankroll, it may be a mental block between you and making the right move. NL is a game about putting your opponent to tough decisions, you're not making it any easier on yourself by raising the stakes and having it represent a larger portion of your bankroll.

-'rilla

Well, I just managed to lose 550$ or 11 buy ins in one day! I don't feel I made many mistakes either.

CARDSON

Last hand of the day against a 'maniac' player pretty much sums it up.

***** Hand History for Game 1332574897 *****
djlew1969 has left the table.
0/0 TexasHTGameTable (NL) - Wed Dec 22 02:06:48 EST 2004
Table Cool Club (Real Money) -- Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: TheGuavaJuic ( $19.9)
Seat 2: Anthony71 ( $54.47)
Seat 4: Hfeldstein ( $218.93)
Seat 5: sean204 ( $49)
Seat 6: Boonaru ( $49.5)
Seat 7: bellacosta ( $48.45)
Seat 8: twoskinneejs ( $56.05)
Seat 9: momomoshi ( $61.2)
Seat 10: DirtyLo ( $124.91)
sean204 posts small blind (0.5)
Boonaru posts big blind (1)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Boonaru [ Ac, 8c ]
bellacosta folds.
twoskinneejs folds.
momomoshi folds.
Anthony71 calls (1)
Hfeldstein raises (4) to 4
sean204 folds.
Boonaru calls (3)
Anthony71 calls (3)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 3c, 8s, 6c ]
Boonaru bets (6)
Anthony71 folds.
Hfeldstein raises (12) to 12
Boonaru calls (6)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 2s ]
Boonaru checks.
Hfeldstein bets (15)
Boonaru calls (15)
** Dealing River ** : [ 6s ]
Boonaru checks.
Hfeldstein bets (18.5)
Boonaru calls (18.5)
Boonaru is all-In.
Creating Main Pot with $100.5 with Boonaru
** Summary **
Main Pot: $100.5 | | Rake: $3
Board: [ 3c 8s 6c 2s 6s ]
TheGuavaJuic balance $19.9, sits out
Anthony71 balance $50.47, lost $4 (folded)
Hfeldstein balance $269.93, bet $49.5, collected $100.5, net +$51 [ 6h 4h ] [ three of a kind, sixes -- 8s,6h,6c,6s,4h ]
sean204 balance $48.5, lost $0.5 (folded)
Boonaru balance $0, lost $49.5 [ Ac 8c ] [ two pairs, eights and sixes -- Ac,8c,8s,6c,6s ]
bellacosta balance $48.45, didn't bet (folded)
twoskinneejs balance $56.05, didn't bet (folded)
momomoshi balance $61.2, didn't bet (folded)
DirtyLo balance $124.91, sits out

I kinda feel that it does not matter what hand I have or how I play it. The end result is always the same, I lose the hand if the pot is big.

I lost 3 all ins with AA and won 0. I flopped a set 4 times, won 2 small pots, lost an all in to a flopped straight from the blinds and one with set of kings to a river flush.

I had QQ twice against KK on a board with no overcards.

I won a grand total of one big pot!

Rilla but lets take me as an example for SNG's, my BR is 130 and I play 3+.30 SNG's, if i fail to place 3 times then im already using over 8% of my BR, so wouldnt tha be breaking the rules?, I just think that loosing 3 SNG's in one day is nothing IMO, so couldnt I risk lets say 11% in a day? or would that just be way over the top?...

-anto

The idea of the 5% was to make sure that people knew how little they should be gambling with each day. The idea was keep it low and safe, the number might not be accurate (seeing how I completely pulled it out of this here ass of mine) but the lesson is there. Just don't go too far. I may go back an edit it up to 10%.

-'rilla

I don't advise buying in with a quarter of the max. You become a push-over to anyone willing to push. You don't have enough money to make camping worthwhile and you definitly don't have enough cash to make any sort of bluff work.

-'rilla

If you're buying it at less than the max, the primary thing you're doing is limiting your winnings on hands - the protection against losing a lot of money in one hand doesn't justify coming in shorthanded if you think you're a winning player. Also, because you're limiting your winnings, you're really not doing anything to variance (cutting away from both sides).

As rilla says above, you also take away any advantage you might have whatsoever in terms of stack leverage (your ability to make people fold because you have a lot left in your stack that they don't want to risk playing against).

If you're finding that you lose your entire stack often on big hands, you might be wise to move down a level or seriously analyze your game and work on getting out of hands (even the big ones) when you're likely beat.

First: The reason I do this is because I am already at the lowest limits and my bankroll is not yet 12-15 buy-ins. And since I´m winning, I don´t see a reason to move down in levels by changing poker room or something like that.

If you're doing it from a soley BR building persepctive, that's fine. You might wanna look into Bonus whoring for a little help. I just think sitting down with a quarter stack won't help your game at all. The only way I learn is through experience and difficult decisions. You're taking the difficult right out of the decision (apparently). It sounds a lot like limit from a theoretical standpoint.

As for your original BR question. 10 max buyin should be more than enough if you want to continue to make your decisions very small with respect to your BR.

-'rilla

Poker is not a lot different from trading futures or options and there are plenty of excellent books giving good money management rules that would be pertinent to poker as well.

Poker is gambling but it should be in the context of taking risks with skill or becomming highly skilled risk takers. You will not be around very long if you are under capitalized. 90+% of all new small businesses fails in the first two years for this reason alone.

Another very important aspect is dollar cost averaging your bank roll. IE how much of a SET AMOUNT am I putting into the fund from outside sources on a PRESET DAY EACH MONTH ? After all, you should be looking at this like an investment. It IS going to cost you to learn and you WILL experience recessions. Sometimes you will be making a deposit on hot streaks; sometimes on cold ones; sometimes on dead even. But overall you should be meeting your previously defined expectation of return or finding out why not.

In futures trading if you EVER are down more than 50% of your bank roll, you STOP playing altogether until you can define the problem, make the necessary adjustments, THEN AND ONLY THEN continue to play; if need be wait until your outside infusions of money catch you back up.

First and foremost is to have a WELL DEFINED set of rules BEFORE you begin play and NEVER, EVER, FOR ANY REASON break them. History is repleat with the carcasses of many a risk taker that chose to either not have rules or break their rules and to their ultimate, inevitable and certain demise.

Recently had a great rush on nickel tables, five dollars to 200 in 2 days. Moved up to .25/.50 NL tables, another week I was at six hun.
Moved up to .50/1.00.....
I like to buy in with half the max buy in at my site, max being 100, so 50 is my buy in.
Played tight as Hell.
Hit AA, all in, busted by flush, down to 550
The very next all in, hit ace high flush on flop, all in, opponent hit straight flush., down to 500.
Buy in, play like a rock...(feeling a bit tilty, tighten way up). Hit aa, bet big before flop, like ten bucks or something. flop comes a44, i flop full house, all in. Opponent calls with four of a kind fours. Down to 450.
Buy in, play rockier than Rocky, hit ace high flush on flop, no pairs, no straight flush, all in, opponent calls, catches the full.
Down to 400.
Similar occurences on the next 3 all ins. I had the best possible hand each time, lost 7 consecutive all ins in the space of a day, for a total loss of 350 despite playing the best possible game. I am back to .10/.20 NL, and I won't be moving up to .25/.50 until I am well over 500. I nearly quit poker.

toons, thats horrible.

Great post 'Rilla. Bankroll is the one area of my game that I just don't pay enough attention to.

Just felt compelled to address a couple points here.

Bah, Bankroll Management, I'm too elite for that. Anyone ever see those chinese movie series called God of Gamblers? The main character, that's right, it's me. 8-)

Well, after encountering a monster downswing THIS BIG. *holds his hands out really far apart to illustrate*

I've decided to do some heavy reinforcements to the structure.

I have it at 15-30. 15 buyins is for one table players, and you should be safe with that. But as you add tables, you'll have more of your bankroll in play and it's a good idea to beef up the roll.

You don't have to live by a certain number. Everyone can take what they feel comfortable with. For most people who only play 1 or 2 tables. 15 buyins should do you well.

But a month ago, I thought a 15 buyin downswing would have been ludicrous. Now I think that the idea of it being ludicrous is ludicrous!

Input please? Is it a bit too much, you think?

-'rilla

Exactly how big was your downswing?

I use 2000-times the Big Blind as my bankroll figure for any game. I'm a firm believe that the blinds drive the action, not the size of the buy-in.

My bankroll strategy is pretty simple. When i reach 2000 times the Big Blind for the next level, I move up. If it ever drops to 2000 times the Big Blind for the PREVIOUS level, I move back down.

This is similar to fixed-fractional [url=http://www.flopturnriver.com/Bankroll-Management-101.html]Bankroll Management[/url] used for most high-risk endeavors. Doing this allows you to work bigger profit potentials with a smaller bankroll while simultaneously greatly reducing your overall risk of ruin. With 2000 times the Big Blind, and more than one level to play at, my total risk of ruin is currently like 1 in 100,000 ... just crazy low.

As for multi-tabling, I make NO adjustment (and I usually play 3+ tables). Each table is mutually exclusive from the next, so theortically, you don't have any more than 1 tables money in play ... you just play the hands faster. That said, if your play deteriorates with extra tables, your bankroll needs to increase to accomodate the increased risk of playing badly (not because you 'have more money' in play). I track my play pretty thouroughly, and I don't notice any change in my win rate or standard deviation from multiple tables (I just have to think faster Razz

).

There's my $0.02 worth. Hope it's helpful.

Due to lots of requests (not really..), I am now writing BR Management 102: Playing Outside The BR!! Coming soon!

I disagree with gdaviet, the size of the buy in dictates the feel of the game completely, If you play with 200BB stacks (VC) the game is more of a limp/draw fest compared with 50BB (Party til last week) where the game was much more aggressive and getting all in was easy. It seems that all sites (except VC) now have 100BB stacks so then the argument that blind size dictates the action is valid.

I agree that different structures will alter bankroll requirements. I should have stated that point.

My current bankroll and play strategy is based on a max buy-in of at least 100xBB.

I was very happy to hear that Party changed their structure.

I'd say once you've an established winning player, 200 bb is fine for limit, and 10 buyins for NL.

How much do you guys cash out of your winning and how much you add to your bankroll? Let's say you put in $200 and get it to $500? Do you consider that part of your playing bankroll or you take out some profit for yourself?
I personally want to take out some of the wins so I see it's real money, not virtual money you want to be careless with. Any thoughts?

I would recommend against taking out more than 10% so you won't psychologically change how you play your game...

Until I get my BR to a health state (~10K) I'll probably not take any profit. after that whenever I win 10% or more of the BR I'll take out all but a 5% increase to keep the BR growing steadily until I can play at soupie's stakes.

- sed

Agreed. I've withdrawn the amount needed to buy Poker Tracker out of my winnings. Other than that, everything is still in my BR, though now it's spread out to a few different sites.

- Jeffrey

Actually, no limit tables can kill you very fast. I usually play $1/$2 table, then once you have at least 10 times the upper limit on your current table, you go for the next level (in this case once you reached $20, you switch to play $3/$6 ones). Unless you are tight in cash (or just started up), always have two full buy-ins in your account and ready to pour in in the middle (Not Applicable to tournaments). I was able to go from $5 to about $140 in a couple of weeks in partypoker.com with this strategy.

this threads real long didn't take the time to read all of it..

but, my BR is at like 230 now after a couple of days of ring...

When can i move up to the 50 level?? when i hit 500 or somethin?

I have been winning consistently at the 25 ring game, but I don't knowwhether its beginners luck or what

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Comments: Bankroll Management 101. Important to new players.

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Comments: Bankroll Management 101. Important to new players.