Comments: Bankroll Management 101. Important to new players.

<MannerBoy> and remember
<MannerBoy> dont read rilla br managment
<MannerBoy> cya
* MannerBoy has quit IRC (Quit)
<Estrop> yeah rillas BR management is flawed
* a500lbgorilla scratches his head.
<Estrop> Well..
<Estrop> I like to play it a lot more safe
<Estrop> have over 30 buy ins
<a500lbgorilla> stfu...
<Estrop> this way, if I slide it doesn't effect me
<dwarfman> bad Estrop
<Estrop> bad?
<Estrop> how?
<dwarfman> bad
<a500lbgorilla> If you really believed that, then you're playing too afraid to ever be successful at any meaningful stakes.
<Estrop> Why?
<a500lbgorilla> So, yes. "bad"
<Estrop> hmm
<dwarfman> a good player can handle a slide in NL ring with 15 buyins
<Estrop> I disagree
<Estrop> I haven't really had a slide, I think I'm good enough
<Estrop> Less risks = better
<mtbottle> mtbottle's patented anti-bankroll management. Screw the 30x buy-in rule. Play at the highest table that will let you sit down. Lose. Stop playing poker.
<a500lbgorilla> I'm sorry, there's no way around it. You're built with a natural fear that will only hold you back. Maybe not forever, but it will hold you back.
<mtbottle> the end
<a500lbgorilla> less risks = -EV
<a500lbgorilla> or less EV
<Estrop> depends how you look at it
<a500lbgorilla> Less EV != better
<Estrop> I'm profiting this way
<a500lbgorilla> with 30 buyins your risk of ruin is zero
<Estrop> yep
<a500lbgorilla> Beyond 30 is just insane.
<Estrop> I can't lose
<mtbottle> ruin isn't fun
<a500lbgorilla> And you're just wasting your time.
<a500lbgorilla> The longer you stay away from profitable higher stakes, the less money you earn.

-'rilla

<Estrop> if I played higher stakes, I could win a lot more, but I could also lose everything I've done so far
<Estrop> why risk it when I am comfortably profiting
<dwarfman> it's not a risk

FEAR

-'rilla

*Last edited by Estrop on Wed, 04 May 2005, 1:16pm; edited 1 time in total*

CONTROL

If I lose a buy in. It is only a very small amount of my BR. This way it prevents me from tilting. Without tilt, I play my game and I can win consistently. I have only been playing a month so I don't see my self as a really good player yet.

COMPROMISE: Short stack @ higher stakes.

Smile

Hate me. You know you want to.

P.S. I guess all of this means I should be buying in full to NL$100 or moving to NL$200 sooner than I thought...

P.P.S. Holy crap I need to quit posting!!! I've only got 14 left before d-day!

Yep rilla your right and wrong. I look at my montly profits and think I could of doubled them. Then I look at how much I would of lost on those bad days and double them.. yeah now I cry. Losing $200 of a $600 bankroll? I don't think I would sit comfortable with that.

So do the rules change if I four-table? Here's my story:

A member of FTR BR'ed me for $500 on March 10th. After turning a large profit I gave him his original $500 plus another $500 back to him. This left me with $500 for my own personal BR.

I have since turned that $500 into $1350. If you count the extra $500 I had to give back to my BR'er I have made a $1850 profit in the last two months.

I four-table NL25, mostly doing the whole camping thing. My personal current BR is $1350. With that type of BR should I allow myself to four-table NL50? Or is there another suggestion out there for me?

Lemme know what you guys think...

Never sit down with more than 10% of your bankroll on any given day.

-'rilla

For some people, leaving early might be a quick fix to problems with big stack play. But you've got to learn to play a big stack since it correlates into EV.

I just play til I'm done or the table has altered in some way that I don't think benefits me. This is usually rocks or strong players sitting in the place of weaker players. Or another strong player building a stack equal to mine.

-'rilla

I started playing online about a week ago and after so long the 2 dollar no limit games seemed to be going nowhere in terms of "making money."
I decided to go to $10 games , got some good breaks and figured i was ready to move up. I started at $100, brought myself up tp $200 in one night, but woke up today and dropped $50 before i knew it.

I had to jump back and look at what the hell i was doing wrong. Mostly i just took alot of bad breaks but that got me to Tilt. im glad i could catch myself before i dropped fast, but i think i need to go back down to smaller buy-ins until i get my game going more solid.

Let me know what you guys think, if im just overreacting cause of my first big slump or if i should slow my role and be more patient with my games progression.

Um. Do what I say. Razz

You may have just gone on a hot streak of cards. Also, your opponents play differently between the 10 buyins and the 100 buyins.

-'rilla

This is why Bankroll Management is important

If your bankroll can't take the swing, you can't play anymore. you'd be surprised what those cards can do. I was surprised anyway.

This is Limit, so things are a little different. at the start i was feeling good, like i was solidly beating the game. now i'm wondering if i was just lucky. having enough cushon in your bankroll is essential. if i went on that swing from the outset, i'd have quit poker. lucky for me i only lost my winnings.

it's not easy looking at only having $0.12 for hours and hours of work. make sure you can take it.

Did you make that graph with data from Poker Tracker? If so how?
I bet my graph looks really similar Sad

I like the concepts being presented on this thread...

What about folks who deposit $50 and then go sit down at a .10/.25?

That's a $25NL at FTP, and that would violate the 15buyin rule. But you don't generally want to play anything lower than those tables because people are loose and play everything...and that's annoying. You might as well play play money.

Thoughts?

That explains a lot.

Thanks gorilla...I appreciate your input.

So let me get this right -- with me being new here -- when you say $25NL, that means "$25 dollar max buyin, regardless of blind structure (which would probably be .10/.25)"?

So when you say 15 buyins, in this case, to play a .10/.25 table ($25 max buyin), you should have a BR of $375?

That's risking actually less than 10%...so is that kinda where your numbers come from the whole 10% a day thing as well?

That really does make sense...it would be easier on me definitely...

The 10% rule was just a way of standardizing all the, "how many buyins for x stake or whatever stake of SnGs?"

I originally had my numbers set at 10 buyins for NL, but bumped it up to 15 after hitting an enormous downswing and thinking beefing it up a tad wouldn't do any harm. I also tapped it up a bit becuase a lot of people were playing with 10 buyins but multitabling, so I just wanted to give them a little extra bankroll under their belts.

And yes, 25NL means 25 max buyin, or usually .1/.25. I'm just so used to calling it 25 NL.

If you're only playing 1 table at a time, you'll be very safe with 10 buyins, at 2 tables, you're not hurting with 15 buyins and at 3-4 tables you'll be safe with 20.

Of course, these are not strict guidelines, just heavy suggestions.

Thanks bud...

I like them. I think that's smart management. If I were to tweak for my personal tastes, I'l probably be somewhere around 10-12 buyins...

I don't play limit, and mostly a combo of cash and MTT games...

I want to play 1/2 NL max buy in is 200, so i need

3000 to play?

Yes, so start grinding.

Hehehe I think i will just move up one level to .10/.25 hehehehe.

Matther Hilger in his Internet Texas Hold "Em book recommends the following for a bankroll guidline:

0.50-1.00 $500

1.00-2.00 $800

2.00-4.00 $1200

That should be enough to keep you going for now.

I've talked to a number of people and have even read some articles about BR management. 95% of most people say 500BB regardless of game -- NL or Limit...so for .50 tables, you need 250...

When I tell them about 15 max buyins (needing 750 to play .25/.50), they just look at me like I'm crazy...and this is from guys that are pretty good players...

I think gorilla's advice is definitely good advice... but it may be a tad too conservative.

Just my $0.02...

Ya know what big man -- I'm gonna prove it to myself that you're right...I think you definitely have a good point, even though I'm skeptical...

But I'm gonna try it bro... Smile

You're actually going to try a 5 buyin bankroll and move up every time you're at 5 buyins for the next level?

Good luck! (you're going to need it, forever!)

No. I said I was going to prove to myself that he's right, so thus, I'm going to try 15-20 buyins per level.

I'm playing 25NL at the moment with a $1600 bankroll, I always play 4 tables at the same time, so is 40xBuy-in a good amount to move to the next level or is that a little to conservative? Im not one of those poeple who goes all in with AK after hitting king on flop, but if I feel I have any kind of edge I will push.

you don't really need to increase the buy-in amounts if you multi-table, as every hand is mutually exclusive.. you simply play more hands.

From What I understand they are saying, You would need at least $600 to play 25NL.

so more like $1,200 for the 50NL tables.

Trust me too bro this is legit advice. I just dropped almost $300 at the 25NL tables in 1 and 1/2 days..

I didn't tilt horribly either, Bad runs just happen, so don't move up too quick or you will be under bank rolled trust me..

Crap I wish I'd read this earlier. I built my meager BR up to $800 on a massive good run on the 100NL table (.50/1). Then I lost $600 of that in 4 days.

Now, reading this, I don't even have a decent enough BR for 25NL...

Ok so you keep a 30 buy in roll to play at certain stakes. Then you "go on a bad run" and lose 7, you are no longer bankrolled for that level so you move down and try to rebuild? Also 7-10 buyins downswings are NOT downswings. If you lose that many buyins at a certain level (especially in 2-3 days like some said) you really need to rethink your game, you probably lack the skill to play at that level.
I personally play at 200 NL, cashing out my profits every 2 weeks and leaving 6-7 buy-ins as a "bankroll". Some times just before I cashout when my "bankroll" (I mean the money in the site cause cashouts go in the bank) is at its highest, I play a little 400 NL too. If I want to move up to 400 permanently I will not cash out one time and leave sth like 3K at the site.

There's a diffirence in the BR you need to start at a level and the BR you need to play at "your level". I CANT lose 10 buy-ins at 200 NL unless I play drunk or sth. Aces or rilla CANT lose 10 buy-ins at their respective levels. When I started (with 32 bucks from a freeroll) I followed STRICT BR management rules. I played $3 sngs and then $10 NL, then 25 NL when I had $500 and so on. At 200 NL I decided to stop moving up and see what money I can average there. Had I never cashed out I would have a BR of about $10.000 at the site. But hey I like they money I've won in my hands not a number on the screen that I cant touch cause its my "bankroll" .

b cool all.

300BB = 300 big bets or big blinds in limit?

thanks
I think someone should invent a new term for big bets so it won't confused with big blind

something like LBs - Large Bets

Why. Do. You. Hate. Me?

-'rilla

I apologize rilla. It was just a sudden twitch of my sciatic poopyhead nerve. Its all gravy baby? Pray

I will resist the urge to smite you.

-'rilla

Quick question: From what i understood, it's okay to 2-table 0.5/1$ limit with 300BB, yes?
Is 300BB the Absolute minimum? I'm okay playing with less than the 300BB on the party beginner tables, however soon i'll start school and have much less time to play, so i wanna 2-table to make up for that, but i'm a bit scared of doing it with say, 250BB... is it a (big) risk?

OK, but I think if you're going to have to choose between being under-rolled for SNGs or for limit or for no-limit go for the limit. Being stuck with 150BB is better than having 9 buy-ins for the SNGs by far. In poker room I only have 50 bucks, that's why that's a choice for me due to the high low stakes.

I gotta say that the BR advice offered in this thread has been very useful and effective.

About ten days ago, I deposited $50 at Ultimate Bet.

I started out at the $2 tables and made a couple of bucks but I hated the all-in maniacs who just didn't care if they won or lost. So I decided to move up.

Before I did, I did something really stupid. I played a $20 SNG and a $5 SNG, and lost both of them, putting my BR down to $31.

Since then, I've been playing the $10 tables (.10 BB) and I have built my BR up to $144 in these 9 or 10 days (I know that doing that was going outside of the BR management advice offered, but the action at the $2 was so ridiculous that it wasn't even fun, and I think that it actually makes your game worse by playing those).

My high point was $147, then I went on a down swing, and dropped to $114, but last night I went on a rush, and got it back up to $144.

I would like to move up in stakes, but I'm following the advice given here, and will not be moving up to the $25 tables until I hit about $300 or so.

That way if I take a swing like I just did recently, then it won't really affect me or damage the BR.

Thoughts?

I have been playing SnGs on VCPoker for quite a while now - started at the $0.50+$0.05 tables and have worked my way up to the $5+$0.50 tables. I move up when i feel comfortable doing so, but as a general rule i am looking at moving up when i hit 20 buyins for the next level (which would be $120 for the $5 games, but i was on a good run at the $3 games so stayed there a short while longer and got to $150 first). I have always said if i experience a downswing of more than 10 buyins then i would move back down to the previous level. So far this has not happened, though i was close to it at one point, and probably would have moved down had i not won $15 in a freeroll tournament while on that downswing.

I would say though that during my only real major downswing, i was making a fair few mistakes as i became increasingly desperate to get off my downswing, i guess i was tilting a bit really after i lost a couple where i felt i was unlucky.

Anyway, bearing this in mind, i would say that if you are a solid player then you should be able to play SnGs with 10 buyins and never go bankrupt, though beginners should probably allow 20 to be safe, because a couple of mistakes and tilt and a bad run of cards could put you down quite a lot of buyins.

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Comments: Bankroll Management 101. Important to new players.

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Comments: Bankroll Management 101. Important to new players.