Comments: aokrongly's 19 Starting Hands

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Ive heard people talk about playing only 19 starting hands as a beginner. Can someone tell me what these hands are. And would any one like to comment on which they would raise with in terms of Xbb? And which they would limp with, and are there some which you would raise with in later but not earlier starting position, many thx.

{Split and edited by Xianti}

Well, I have not heard about this 19 hands business, but I would hazard a guess that these are the 13 pocket pairs plus the 6 Broadway combinations. However, I would not just stick with this. Sure, as a beginner you are looking to minimise the number of hands you play and generally try and stick to playing the top-end cards to maximise your chances of winning and minimise your chances of losing.

The big problem is that I could type all day about different situations where I would do something entirely different. It all depends (and not in any specific order) on;

The texture of the table in general
The position on the table of the TAggs and the LAggs
The number of players left
The size of my stack
The size of everyone else’s stacks
The size of the blinds
My position

The general raise would be 3-4xBB plus one additional BB for every limper already in the pot. i.e. If I am first to enter a pot and am doing so with a raise, I will go for 3-4 x BB. If I am the 2nd or 3rd to enter the pot and the people before me have both limped, I will raise to 5-6xBB.

However, if we take those 19 hands as a guideline;

Early Position
I am limping pp’s up to, and sometimes possibly including, JJ.
QQ-AA is a raise and, if faced with a raise, KK and AA are a re-raise to me. QQ are a call or raise, depending on reads
I will call a small raise with pp’s and look to hit a set, but will not become too attached to my pp.
I can take or leave AJ and I will probably fold KJ, KQ and QJ. I will almost certainly fold these hands to a raise.
AK and AQ are probably raises but I would only call a raise with these hands.

Middle Position
I am still limping pp’s, but am looking to raise if I am first into the pot with anything down to about 99 now.
QQ – AA are all raise and re-raise hands.
AJ and KQ are probably now raising hands, certainly callable, but would still probably fold to an EP raise.

Late Position
Again, all dependant on the action in front of you, but if it is folded to you in LP, all those 19 hands are pretty much raisable.

That is just my general overview and there is far more I could put. My advice would be just to read up (books and on here) and play. Post your HH’s on here and ask questions. People are more than willing to help you out. Don’t be afraid to ask because that is how you learn.

Good luck and welcome to FTR!

– Staresy

Hello Starsey, can i just say thanks very much for taking time out to write such a full reply.
Could i ask a couple of questions.. Not come across abreviations TAggs and LAggs, what are they, and also which are the 6 hands other than the pairs...im guessing AKs AK AQs AQ KQs and AJs?
One last thing, if youre folding some fairly strong hole cards to raises, do you not worry your missing oppotunitys, because i play at 10c/20c tables where i believe many players are still limping in and calling down with junk, are you not tempted to call raises with lower starting hands like JTs in middle pos? Many thx Joe

This site is excellent, being reading for a week now, the whole ethos of helping your potential opponents to improve is very alturistic and slightly strange as well, but the spirit of this site is great, congratulations to all involved...

TAgg - Tight Aggressive
LAgg - Loose Aggressive

cheers

oh and btw, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13407

Found this on my own quest and thought of you.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/chart_starting_hands.html

Thanks for the details of that, indeed.

Just to make sure I've got some of that:
* It's not good for tourneys because the standard ratio of blind/max-stack for ring is acceptable losses for the tight play, right?
* I've seen you post a good deal about the over-emphasis people make on suited versus unsuited, and certainly you haven't made that distinction here in your 19 hand approach. Is that primarily for simplicity, or deeply rooted in the overvaluing of suited hands?

thanks

*Last edited by aokrongly on Thu, 07 Sep 2006, 12:02pm; edited 3 times in total*

Out of curiosity AOK, why do you feel that QJ is worth including in your 19 starting hands but KT isn't?

I could see raising with either from late position to open the pot, but just calling? If there's 5 other people in with you, surely they're not worth playing for top pair/good kicker value.

Just for the record, all this is arguable, and there is no "correct answer". It depends on your game, style, etc. The 19 hands were designed to keep newbies out of trouble. I play them because I believe in them and they work for me. Plus I know how to play each of the 19 hands for maximum positive effect and minimum negative effect.

To answer your question. KT loses to KJ. That may sound like a smartass answer, but it isn't. I consider KJ the worst of the 19 starting hands. Here's why:

First, I won't play either in a raise pot preflop. People will raise preflop with AJ, AQ, AK, and KQ - especially at micro-NL. So, I'm folding KJ and KQ and JQ in raised hands. That keeps me from playing KQ (where I hit TP) against AK and AQ. I don't play QJ in a raise pot preflop, that keeps me from playing QJ (where I hit TP) against AQ and AJ, and KQ. See how that works. I ask "what do people TYPICALLY raise preflop with - or even call a raise preflop with?" Pocket TT or better KQ at the worst or Ace/face. I don't KNOW if they have any of those, but why get involved if I can't play confidently When I Hit?

2. People limp all kinds of crap, like KT, K9, Suited K anything, TJ, TQ, AT to suited Ace/trash. So If I hit KJ, KQ, QJ as Top Pair and I'm playing against someone else who also hit top pair then I'm winning 90% of the time. KJ is susceptible to KQ (which many people limp). That's why I'm not overly jazzed about KJ - but I include it because it wins more against KT or lower than it loses to KQ. The rule is to play it carefully and don't call overly large bets and raises. Play it for value (KJ that is).

3. Raising vs Calling. The 19 hands are based on Performance Poker Rules. The rules that aren't stated here are table selection (45% or higher preflop callers and 20xBB average pot size). If you're using that selection criteria for the tables you play, then raising in late position with these hands WILL NOT thin the field sufficiently, if at all, unless you raise so much that the other players just can't call you and you take the pot right there. In short, with 45% or higher seeing the flop and 20x or greater average pot size, you're going to have to win WITH CARDS the vast majority of the time. This is a table where people don't fold easily, if at all. That's good, you're getting PAID when you win. But you have to win. Hence the 19 hands. They are winners against typical players.

Now, as you implied, TPTK isn't a great hand against alot of preflop limpers. You're right! That's why postflop play is important too. Also, as a quick note, let's say you're playing KQ late and there are 4 limpers (plus the BB has a tendency to stick around) so you raise KQ 3xBB, who is going to call you? Pocket pairs and people who love getting lucky with drawing hands. They know what you have - AK AQ or a big pocket pair (that's the obvious assumption). So if you hit a King or Queen on the flop, they're done. They don't know your kicker isn't as high as they thought, but it won't matter. If the flop is faceless then you have position - which is good - and you have the initiative, but if you're playing someone who is putting you on AQ or AK and has a pocket pair (and they have a clue) here's what happens. Flop is faceless, PP checks, you make a continuation bet, he raises (probably just doubling your bet) to put you to the test. Either you have to dance with the dragon and RERAISE, or you call (which is THE #1 declaration that you have AK/AQ). So now he knows. Turn is a blank, he bets fairly strong, you fold. Done. You wasted a preflop raise, a continuation bet, AND a call. Alternately, you limp with it, hit it, pocket pair folds and you're playing KTs who thinks he's good so he check/calls your bets all the way through the river.

I hope this helps. Again, there's alot that is included in Performance Poker - which is a specific style of poker for specific situation (much like Counter-Play) - that isn't included in each post about some aspect of it.

I know I need to finish the book. I've made nooo progress in the last few months. New job, new house, kids in school, blah, blah, blah.

Good luck. The main aspect of Performance Poker, however, is to CREATE YOUR OWN GAME. Know exactly why and how you do everythign you do, examine, record, revise, review, become obsessed and curious, etc. etc. (Damn I need to finish the book - it's really good.)

see ya.

Thanks for that reply, AOK. Very well thought out. I understand your stipulation that this strategy is meant for super loose low limit tables, and under those circumstances, it makes perfect sense.

Now, about AJ, KQ, KJ and QJ -- what would you say is your ideal flop with them?

With AJ and KJ, is a J high flop better than an A or K on the flop? I agree that top pair with any of these hands in an unraised pot is probably good, but I can't help but feel that with that many limpers, there's a good chance at least one of them has hit 2 pair or trips. Am I just paranoid?

As far as broadcasting your hand with a raise, I'm not sure most of the people who play at 10NL or ever 25NL would necessarily notice.

TP is good. I'll delay all my betting 1 street. I make more money that way. If I flop TP I'll check/call. Then I'll put pressure on the Turn. That's just me. I figure if I get a little separation then I get more action. You STILL going to have to win with cards. If someone flopped 2nd pair or tp bad kicker they won't fold even to a raise on the flop. If they pair their kicker on the turn or river, you're going to lose and they will still be in the hand, regardless.

However, they project their hand 80% of the time. So if you aren't Over betting TPTK then they will declare their 2 pair and you can get out of the way. on $25 NL it looks like this
pot $1 let's say preflop, flop comes you get TPTK and bet $1, get called by 1 player or 2, pots $3-4 turn hits and you bet $1.50, they raise to $3. YOU'RE BEAT, FOLD.

Puss NL players don't raise with nothing. They aren't stupid. Does he have 2 pair or did he make a set? Who cares. Save your money.

In this case you call - because you really like your KQ with a K on the board. River comes.... now what either you bet again and he pushes or you check, he bets, you call and you lose.

So, yea, don't be paranoid because you will KNOW if they hit 2 pair. They may just call on the flop if they flop 2 pair and then do something on the turn. But they WILL raise, and you shouldn't be betting the farm on tptk anyway.

good luck.

Well said , just remember use those rules only if u are very new to poker and u play really micro stakes.
Sooner or later and as u move up stakes u will understand that u need to play poker in order to make money so dont stuck with this.
Develop ur game, make adjustments regarding ur table and the players, evolve, thats what performance poker is all about.

All good stuff. Question for AOK:

Do you like betting the pot on the flop with top pair/good kicker at 10NL or 25NL, or something like 2/3-3/4 of the pot? How about on the turn? In the example you gave, it seems like your turn bet is just too weak, and encourages them to stay in and suck out on you.

What about continuation bets? Do you feel they're profitable at these levels, or are they just trouble?

How about in a 3 or 4 way pot? Putting in a bet for 2/3 the pot with 2 or 3 people behind you is a recipe for desaster, I think. Sure, you're not giving anyone good odds to call, but you have to remember you're against calling stations here. They'll call with A high or bottom pair, and as soon as the first one calls, the next one actually /is/ getting good odds to draw.

I've been doing this in the past and I'm starting to think it costs you too much in the long run. If you're playing against calling stations, and they're going to call you no matter what, might as well make them pay a lot.

Can anyone really make an argument for betting less than the pot on the flop vs more than one opponent at micro limits?

Well said Pelion. I have nothing to add to that.

I'll repeat that standard poker logic indicates larger bet here against multiple players on the flop - however....

I'll check in this situation and hope someone else bets for me, then, depending on their bet I'll decide whether to call or raise big. I have a couple reasons for doing this.

First, we're talking about an unraised pot here preflop (we're still talking about that right?) So I have a good idea what types of hands people are playing. My first question is "did one of them hit already?", 2 pair or a set? is there a strong draw (people love flush draws). Now I like making people pay for draws on the turn, not the flop. I'll give a cheap card on the flop (whether I'm betting or doing a come-a-long raise). Also, I prefer doing a check/raise here because if someone hit hard on the flop they will reraise me back and I can fold out of the hand right there. I'm not going to do the betting FOR THE OTHER PERSON in this instance. Finally, I'm always willing to get out of a hand with TPTK. So, before I go betting big (and let's say there are 5 players in the hand on 25NL, counting me, in an unraised pot - that's 1.25 in the pot. Now, if the blinds are in the hand I can almost dismiss their hands as pure junk. So, I'm watching out for the other 2 players first, and if one of the blinds sticks around, then I'm going to be very curious about a lucky hit on the flop - like 2 pair.

So, how much do I bet here? Let's say I'm early - both blinds check (because they are going to fold anyway now). I'm really playing 2 players here, not 4. (again this is an unraised pot) Do I bet $2.50? Who will call that? I don't want to win $1.25. I want to win at least the average pot (which is $5). So, I'll check and hope one of the trailing players gets interested in the pot and bets .75 or so. I'll call and so will the other guy maybe - that makes the pot $4. Now I'm interested AND I have a good idea of where I stand.

So the turn comes and I bet $2.50. If I get called I'm probably good. If the original bettor raises then the flop hit him hard and I'm done. If there's a draw I may bet alot less, like .50. Why? I want them to think I'm on the draw. I'm assuming one of them IS really on the draw if there are alot of preflop callers. And I'm HOPING one of them has TP bad kicker. So I bet .50 hoping for a $2 raise that I can then just call (nailing home the message "I'M ON THE DRAW" AT THE SAME PRICE AS THE 2.50 BET I WAS GOING TO MAKE ANYWAY). The turn is no help (TO THE DRAW) so I check (MAINTINING THE DECEPTION)- he bets again this time bigger (now the pot is getting where I want it to be) and I call him. River is no help (TO THE DRAW). Now 1 of 3 things just happened:

1. He was on the draw and semi-bluffing. Not likely. But if that's the case then he checks or folds no matter what I do.
2. He had me beat on the flop. A possibility, but hey that's poker.
3. I have him. He has Top Pair bad kicker or ANY pair and he has sold out that I'm on the draw and just missed big time.

In all those cases there's one solution. Come out with a big bet. Depending on the betting, at this point the pot is between $5 and $10. So I come out for $10. He either folds (because he was going to fold anyway), Pushes (because he has me smoked) so I fold, OR Calls and I take most his stack.

If I had bet $2 on the flop with my TP then I would have won $1.25 or just been called and had no idea where I stood. By taking decent odds that I AM ahead and will probably Stay ahead OR that I am behind and he will let me know on the turn. Either way I'm betting less on the flop or checking. Then I have either saved money by letting him declare his hand, or make ALOT more money by taking a one beat pause. There is the chance he catches up on the river OR that he has mondo balls and pushes with a weaker hand than TPTK against my $10 bet and gets me to fold. But that is HIGHLY unlikely AND that $10 bet is also what I would do with a set or 2 pair of my own. So, there's no way for him to know and on another hand I can bust him for his whole stack (or someone else) when they try the same thing.

That's my rambling answer.

I can tell you what my experience has been with the micro-limit game, and maybe there's something in there that you can use. I'm no expert, but I have been "specialising" in $2NL for about 16,000 hands now.

I used to follow Aok's Performance Poker 19 starting hand strategy and betting advice religiously. I tworks fine. However, for the last 1000 hands or so, I've been loosening up a lot in late position, or when the table is extremely passive, I'll call with anything semi-decent -- if the pot is unraised -- from almost any position.

I will NOT raise pre-flop with AK or AQ, as is Aok's advice. The only hands I'm raising with pre-flop are AA, KK, QQ and JJ. The rest is all limped. With the aforementioned hands, I will continuation bet usually 2/3 or the whole pot.

If I've got AA, I'll see the thing through no matter what, so I'll keep raising. If I have KK and there's an Ace on the board, well, usually someone has the other ace, so that's going to give me pause for concern. Same goes for QQ and JJ.

I am playing exceedingly passively -- basically using Aok's Counterplay -- and I am doing very well at these limits.

I suppose my advice, therefore, is to not raise so much pre-flop to minimise the use of continuation bets. People will call you anyways at these limits, unless you're at a table of players who you can see are trying to take the game more seriously.

I can already hear the nay-sayers to this advice, but I suspect that none 0f them remember how it is to play at these ridiculous limits. Whatever, I'm winning.

I don't know what limits you're at, but I have managed to make 67 bucks over the past month at the $.01/$.02 tables which is not too bad, I reckon. Say, 800 hands per week.

Check out Aok's post on Counterplay. It's the only way to play against the sort of opponent you meet at the micro-limits.

Oh, and the weekends are the best time for making cash, at least at Paradise, using this passive approach.

Jigs

It's always good to hear when people are doing well with my strategies. Congratulations!!

Congrats Jiggus. It seems that u realize perfect not only the 19 hands strategy but when and where to use it too. Hope u build ur bankroll soon and move up to higher stakes.
Good luck with your game

If you don't know this yet....buy Harrington on Hold'em Vol I and II....especially if you are planning on playing in any tourneys....these books helped my game immensely and I have heard nothing but utter praise for these books from anyone on this site.

great thread guys, bookmarked Smile

nice to hear of the different lines to take with these TP hands and the benefits...

will try and incorporate this play into my game as i usueally dont bother with AJ, KJ or QJ. I must re-read this thread at least once a week Smile

No really i understand that u know to use that strategy well and u are aware that it works on certain stakes. It wasnt a compliment , it was the truth i guess.
Yea i hope too Rolling Eyes

Poker is a sick game and not everyone can play it in higher level, it can change u as a person.
You can talk the game , but can u play it ?
Anyway good luck hope u killing the tales and soon u move up ! Im pretty sure u can play succesfull in a little higher stakes than the stakes u play now.

{This thread has been edited by me - all non-topic posts were edited out}

bump

tired of loking for it

So you are saying if you are delt a hand like A9, A10 or J10 on the button or CO, and it is folded around to you, you are still folding? Those hands are just so tempting Mad

and how do you play in the blinds? is it still have one of the 19 hands, or else go into check fold mode?

yea, check/fold

I'm sure the question has been asked before, but what makes this opening strategy so unfeasible in MTTs and SnGs? I understand to a degree that the dynamics of the game shift a lot, but I'm not seeing what makes this strategy weak in those situations.

Any illumination on the subject would be appreciated.

not weak, but tourneys are so much more situational than ring. the 19 hands go out the window after the 3rd level in most sngs. open it up to say, 30 hands, more suited connectors and weaker aces. right, aok? tell me i'm right, i'm right, right? oh please god someone tell me i'm right.

In a SnG or MTT 29 hands plus all suited connectors come into play. Position is Vital. Preflop betting and raising is VITAL.

What are the 29 hands,you may ask... lol

aa, kk, qq, jj, tt, 99, 88, 77, 66, 55, 44, 33, 22, ak-a2, kq, kj, qj, and all suited connectors. that's 29

Plus there are plenty of situations where the cards don't matter at all - especially late, shorthanded and in situations where you are playing super-tight idiots.

Whoops, I'm sorry SB vs BB add Kt-K2, Qt-Q5, and TJs.

And I'm not saying it's ill advised to play 19 hand in mtt or sng. I'm saying it's impossible. It's suicide. You can't win.

relative stack sizes are also important in some instances.

Read Harrington on Holdem Vol 1. That's cure what ailes you. Vol 2 is good also, but i think get's to balled up on stack sizes.

With that said I've had great success playing HOH style and will post my HOH chart and MTT information on patience soon.

So there you go.

JUKE IS ..... RIGHT!

Good luck playing this system at the higher levels.
When you do get action watch out, cuz the better players will be playing monsters since they know you only play really strong hands.
They will also be pushing you around, since you fold so much, stealing the blinds, and knocking you out of pots, etc.

Aok, you say you only play those 19 hands. how high are you personally playing (with the 19 hands that you said you only play). How high would you recommend that a n00b plays with this hand chart.

I know this is an oversimplified list of hands to newbies but looks pretty horrible nonetheless.

why is QJ and KJ in the 19 hand range, they're really weak hands.

what's the reason that they're in it?

I think you'd be better off with Fnord's 13 starting hands, although dropping down to Phil's 10 starting hands is giving up too much value.

AK, top pair is a sucker hand!

Check out my new book coming up in Feb. 2007: How to Beat 10nl for the Functionally Retarded.

*Last edited by aokrongly on Tue, 22 Jan 2008, 2:11pm; edited 1 time in total*

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