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Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 3:34pm Post subject: Big Hand Big Action |
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2889 WPP: 89
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Playing on a new site that doesn't support Ptracker so I'll do my best.
Earlier, villain check-called AKo unimproved on 9T board vs my QJ, we hit running 4-card flushes and she checkraised me on river when she hit. She seems pretty nittaggy in general. Earlier I rivered a boat on an AQQx6 board and bet 3/4 pot and she called and mucked.
eff stacks are 280$
I raise to 7$ she calls
flop (17$) is I think for a while and check, she checks behind
turn is a beautiful , I bet 15$ she thinks for a bit and calls.
river (45$ish) is Board is now
I think for a long time and bet 65$. She INSTA raises to 165$, leaving herself 90$ish behind.
Thoughts? |
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Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 3:47pm Post subject: |
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Straight

Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 245 WPP: 110
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| your not contemplating folding are you? Unless im missing something, the only thing in her range that beats you here is 1010/44. Both seem pretty unlikely and her range is a lot wider than those 2 hands imo. I think the large majority of the time this is a 4. I shove and smile about it. Maybe even fistpump. |
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Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 3:48pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 1537 WPP: 47
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 3:51pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 1562 WPP: 55
Location: Pillaging Donksville
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| Your opponent didn't 3bet AKo pre right? |
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Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 3:55pm Post subject: |
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Full House

Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Posts: 699 WPP: 72
Location: Cheshire, UK
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This is tricky, though I'm not folding.
44/QQ/TT have you beat. I guess the decision is whether to push or fold, right? I call if she is nitty, I just can't find the fold button here EVER. Would be sick if it was TT |
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Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 4:06pm Post subject: |
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Full House

Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 1383 WPP: 139
Location: moral high ground
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The instaraise was probably a misclick.  |
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Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 4:16pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 1630 WPP: 93
Location: The Loser's Lounge
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Gross, I hate calling, folding, and pushing. Your opponent has showed in the previous hand she likes to slowplay and count on you to give the action (yeah one hand sample I know, but still...) so it's super likely this is how she would play QQ, 44. And being the nitty type she very likely plays TT like this as well.
There's not any other hands I really see her playing the hand like this and getting to the river and making that raise. I doubt a nittag plays QT for stacks on the river because they're always fearing monsters on paired boards.
Sigh and call I guess if you respect her game that much, and hate life when she shows 45.
Or sigh and push if you think she's capable of bad bluffs or overvaluing lesser hands, and hate life when she shows 4444. |
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Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 5:37pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 1537 WPP: 47
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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| PokerMuzz wrote: | This is tricky, though I'm not folding.
44/QQ/TT have you beat. I guess the decision is whether to push or fold, right? I call if she is nitty, I just can't find the fold button here EVER. Would be sick if it was TT |
no |
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Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 6:08pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 1653 WPP: 139
Location: Kansas
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QT is probably all we beat here, me thinks.
smells a lot like TT but there's no way I fold this, and I'm not raising either so call and try not to punch a hole through your monitor when the pot gets shipped her way |
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Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 6:47pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2889 WPP: 89
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Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 6:58pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 1653 WPP: 139
Location: Kansas
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| Genitruc wrote: | | how bad is folding |
given reads I don't think it's that bad really, but goddamn our hand is really awesome! just.....can't.....fold it, gah!
I'm curious as to what gabe, ISF, sauce, fnord, massimo, and others think about this... |
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Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 7:51pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 1630 WPP: 93
Location: The Loser's Lounge
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| Genitruc wrote: | | how bad is folding |
I think folding could be done if your read was solid enough to trust. But it sounds like you've only played with this person for the one session so I definately don't think you can trust it that much. I've seen too many people appear to be somewhat solid or nitty then they just totally self-destruct for no reason on a hand. |
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Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 8:38pm Post subject: |
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Full House

Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 922 WPP: 81
Location: Montreal
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| I dont see how you can u fold when the only thing beating u is 44. I dont see TT INSTA-raising on river, as it takes some time to realize u just made a boat, etc etc...id AT LEAST call, most likely push. |
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Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 9:03pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 1537 WPP: 47
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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| for the record id always call unless id logged enough hands with opp to know she was "bet-literate". in those rarish cases i might actually sob, time down to 1 sec for dramatic effect, and fold. |
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Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 11:02pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2889 WPP: 89
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Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 12:07am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 1551 WPP: 84
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i think when you bet 65 into 45, she just calls with QT...so 35-40 seems better, maybe even $20, to make sure QT/AQ value raises.
anyway, what u wrote seems too much like TT/44. standard is push but idk.
why would anybody call instead of push? to catch a bluff? |
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Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 12:13am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 04 Jul 2006
Posts: 3998 WPP: 76
Location: Pwnsylvania
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| really, there's like AA/KK/4x in her range too. |
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Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 12:15am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 1653 WPP: 139
Location: Kansas
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| no way a tight player has 4x here |
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Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 12:22am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 1537 WPP: 47
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
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| what is this push or fold crap? We need to be ahead about twice as often to profitably push here as we need to be to profitably call. |
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Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 12:35am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 04 Jul 2006
Posts: 3998 WPP: 76
Location: Pwnsylvania
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| villain is passive, not tight |
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Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 12:59am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 1653 WPP: 139
Location: Kansas
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| bigspenda73 wrote: | | villain is passive, not tight |
| Quote: | | She seems pretty nittaggy in general |
nittaggy will never ever ever have a 4 here |
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Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 10:01am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 1551 WPP: 84
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| nutsinho wrote: | | what is this push or fold crap? We need to be ahead about twice as often to profitably push here as we need to be to profitably call. |
imo villain's entire range to raise is also calling a push, or at least close to it.
actually i guess this could be ace high or something, but the timing and other read makes me think QT+. |
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Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 10:21am Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 2390 WPP: 94
Location: Arlington, VA
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| benny999 wrote: | | nutsinho wrote: | | what is this push or fold crap? We need to be ahead about twice as often to profitably push here as we need to be to profitably call. |
imo villain's entire range to raise is also calling a push, or at least close to it. |
Yes, that means you need to be a favorite against her range to profitably push. You don't need to be a favorite against her range to call. |
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Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 12:03pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 1551 WPP: 84
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| dsaxton wrote: | | benny999 wrote: | | nutsinho wrote: | | what is this push or fold crap? We need to be ahead about twice as often to profitably push here as we need to be to profitably call. |
imo villain's entire range to raise is also calling a push, or at least close to it. |
Yes, that means you need to be a favorite against her range to profitably push. You don't need to be a favorite against her range to call. |
i might be wrong, but here's how i look at it:
pushing is not like putting in $190 into the pot...you first have to call the $100 then put in $90 more.
so really you're betting 90 into a huge pot that there are enough worse hands in her calling range.
in other words if there are enough worse that raise $100 more for value, then there are enough worse that call $90 on top. |
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Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 7:51pm Post subject: |
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Full House

Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 922 WPP: 81
Location: Montreal
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| Maybe i have wrong reasoning about this, but since theres a decent enough chance he has 44/TT/QQ I prefer just to call here. If we have QQ id always push though. Is this bad? |
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Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 8:41pm Post subject: |
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4-of-a-Kind

Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2889 WPP: 89
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my thoughts on the hand as it played out were that we're calling to beat bluffs, right?
Well, what bluffs can a solid villain have here? Hearts almost always bet the flop, 56 is unlikely cuz of preflop nittiness, QQ 3-bets preflop almost always so that leaves TT and 44.
I'd bet, however, that 44 raises the turn to build the pot so the hand I expected to be shown here was TT. Another reason we can discount being bluffed is our river betsize. Only really really sick wackos would bluffraise this river after we overbet.
So I think it's a fold. Bleh. |
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