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Genitruc
Post Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 3:34pm    Post subject: Big Hand Big Action Reply with quote
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Playing on a new site that doesn't support Ptracker so I'll do my best.

Earlier, villain check-called AKo unimproved on 9T board vs my QJ, we hit running 4-card flushes and she checkraised me on river when she hit. She seems pretty nittaggy in general. Earlier I rivered a boat on an AQQx6 board and bet 3/4 pot and she called and mucked.

eff stacks are 280$

I raise Seven of Diamonds Seven of Hearts to 7$ she calls

flop (17$) is Queen of Hearts Four of Diamonds Four of Hearts I think for a while and check, she checks behind

turn is a beautiful Seven of Clubs , I bet 15$ she thinks for a bit and calls.

river (45$ish) is Ten of Spades Board is now Queen of Hearts Four of Diamonds Four of Hearts Seven of Clubs Ten of Spades

I think for a long time and bet 65$. She INSTA raises to 165$, leaving herself 90$ish behind.

Thoughts?
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snowbird4life
Post Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 3:47pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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your not contemplating folding are you? Unless im missing something, the only thing in her range that beats you here is 1010/44. Both seem pretty unlikely and her range is a lot wider than those 2 hands imo. I think the large majority of the time this is a 4. I shove and smile about it. Maybe even fistpump.
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nutsinho
Post Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 3:48pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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youre fucked
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Ash256
Post Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 3:51pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Your opponent didn't 3bet AKo pre right?
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Muzzard
Post Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 3:55pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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This is tricky, though I'm not folding.

44/QQ/TT have you beat. I guess the decision is whether to push or fold, right? I call if she is nitty, I just can't find the fold button here EVER. Would be sick if it was TT
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FlyingSaucy
Post Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 4:06pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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The instaraise was probably a misclick. Wink
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Galapogos
Post Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 4:16pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Gross, I hate calling, folding, and pushing. Your opponent has showed in the previous hand she likes to slowplay and count on you to give the action (yeah one hand sample I know, but still...) so it's super likely this is how she would play QQ, 44. And being the nitty type she very likely plays TT like this as well.

There's not any other hands I really see her playing the hand like this and getting to the river and making that raise. I doubt a nittag plays QT for stacks on the river because they're always fearing monsters on paired boards.

Sigh and call I guess if you respect her game that much, and hate life when she shows 45.

Or sigh and push if you think she's capable of bad bluffs or overvaluing lesser hands, and hate life when she shows 4444.
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nutsinho
Post Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 5:37pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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PokerMuzz wrote:
This is tricky, though I'm not folding.

44/QQ/TT have you beat. I guess the decision is whether to push or fold, right? I call if she is nitty, I just can't find the fold button here EVER. Would be sick if it was TT



no
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UG
Post Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 6:08pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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QT is probably all we beat here, me thinks.

smells a lot like TT but there's no way I fold this, and I'm not raising either so call and try not to punch a hole through your monitor when the pot gets shipped her way
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Genitruc
Post Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 6:47pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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how bad is folding
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UG
Post Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 6:58pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Genitruc wrote:
how bad is folding


given reads I don't think it's that bad really, but goddamn our hand is really awesome! just.....can't.....fold it, gah! Smile

I'm curious as to what gabe, ISF, sauce, fnord, massimo, and others think about this...
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Galapogos
Post Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 7:51pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Genitruc wrote:
how bad is folding


I think folding could be done if your read was solid enough to trust. But it sounds like you've only played with this person for the one session so I definately don't think you can trust it that much. I've seen too many people appear to be somewhat solid or nitty then they just totally self-destruct for no reason on a hand.
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Alexos
Post Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 8:38pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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I dont see how you can u fold when the only thing beating u is 44. I dont see TT INSTA-raising on river, as it takes some time to realize u just made a boat, etc etc...id AT LEAST call, most likely push.
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nutsinho
Post Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 9:03pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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for the record id always call unless id logged enough hands with opp to know she was "bet-literate". in those rarish cases i might actually sob, time down to 1 sec for dramatic effect, and fold.
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Genitruc
Post Posted: Sat, 29 Dec 2007, 11:02pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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benny999
Post Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 12:07am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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i think when you bet 65 into 45, she just calls with QT...so 35-40 seems better, maybe even $20, to make sure QT/AQ value raises.

anyway, what u wrote seems too much like TT/44. standard is push but idk.

why would anybody call instead of push? to catch a bluff?
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bigspenda73
Post Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 12:13am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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really, there's like AA/KK/4x in her range too.
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UG
Post Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 12:15am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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no way a tight player has 4x here
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nutsinho
Post Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 12:22am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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what is this push or fold crap? We need to be ahead about twice as often to profitably push here as we need to be to profitably call.
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bigspenda73
Post Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 12:35am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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villain is passive, not tight
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UG
Post Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 12:59am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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bigspenda73 wrote:
villain is passive, not tight


Quote:
She seems pretty nittaggy in general


nittaggy will never ever ever have a 4 here
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benny999
Post Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 10:01am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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nutsinho wrote:
what is this push or fold crap? We need to be ahead about twice as often to profitably push here as we need to be to profitably call.


imo villain's entire range to raise is also calling a push, or at least close to it.

actually i guess this could be ace high or something, but the timing and other read makes me think QT+.
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dsaxton
Post Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 10:21am    Post subject: Reply with quote
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benny999 wrote:
nutsinho wrote:
what is this push or fold crap? We need to be ahead about twice as often to profitably push here as we need to be to profitably call.


imo villain's entire range to raise is also calling a push, or at least close to it.


Yes, that means you need to be a favorite against her range to profitably push. You don't need to be a favorite against her range to call.
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benny999
Post Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 12:03pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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dsaxton wrote:
benny999 wrote:
nutsinho wrote:
what is this push or fold crap? We need to be ahead about twice as often to profitably push here as we need to be to profitably call.


imo villain's entire range to raise is also calling a push, or at least close to it.


Yes, that means you need to be a favorite against her range to profitably push. You don't need to be a favorite against her range to call.


i might be wrong, but here's how i look at it:

pushing is not like putting in $190 into the pot...you first have to call the $100 then put in $90 more.

so really you're betting 90 into a huge pot that there are enough worse hands in her calling range.

in other words if there are enough worse that raise $100 more for value, then there are enough worse that call $90 on top.
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Alexos
Post Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 7:51pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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Maybe i have wrong reasoning about this, but since theres a decent enough chance he has 44/TT/QQ I prefer just to call here. If we have QQ id always push though. Is this bad?
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Genitruc
Post Posted: Sun, 30 Dec 2007, 8:41pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
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my thoughts on the hand as it played out were that we're calling to beat bluffs, right?

Well, what bluffs can a solid villain have here? Hearts almost always bet the flop, 56 is unlikely cuz of preflop nittiness, QQ 3-bets preflop almost always so that leaves TT and 44.

I'd bet, however, that 44 raises the turn to build the pot so the hand I expected to be shown here was TT. Another reason we can discount being bluffed is our river betsize. Only really really sick wackos would bluffraise this river after we overbet.

So I think it's a fold. Bleh.
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