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Posted: Sat, 04 Oct 2008, 7:15am Post subject:
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Strike 3
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 5869
WPP: 52
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| That's why I don't 3bet AQ/AJ =/ |
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Posted: Sat, 04 Oct 2008, 11:48am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| wakeup wrote: | So when we 3b AQ/AJ vs reasonably loose TAGs, are we playin for stacks when we hit TP?
What kind of boards do u bluff raise when tags are cbetting too much? |
It really depends on your history and what you know about his range when he calls a 3-bet. Often your SPR is going to suggest that you're committed, but that doesn't mean you have to bet or raise post-flop. I just went digging through yesterday's hands to find an example of what I mean. Even though this isn't AQ or AJ, the idea is the same. When I check behind on the flop, I make it more likely to extract against worse hands on later streets since it's possible he catches a pair if he didn't already, and since it makes my range look weaker since I've taken passive options.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP1 ($46.10)
MP2 ($35)
CO ($51.80)
Button ($50.30)
SB ($70.95)
Hero (BB) ($49.25)
UTG ($77.35)
UTG+1 ($35.95)
Preflop: Hero is BB with A , 9
6 folds, SB raises to $2, Hero raises to $6, SB calls $4
Flop: ($12) A , 2 , 5 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks
Turn: ($12) Q (2 players)
SB bets $7.50, Hero calls $7.50
River: ($27) J (2 players)
SB bets $16, Hero calls $16
And Villain mucks KQs. Something else to keep in mind is that often it's going to be better to just call with AQ/AJ than to 3-bet.
When I combat Villain's c-bets, I tend to look for boards that probably hit me and probably missed them. You also need to be calling raises with a wider range of hands than 22-TT to make this work but that's balance blah blah blah etc. |
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Posted: Mon, 06 Oct 2008, 8:26am Post subject:
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2008
Posts: 77
WPP: 29
Location: Oz
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Hrmm yeah, but even if we check one street with TP, they can still bet the turn and river and get us all in comfortably in a 3b pot.
Also its tough to take a similar line OOP, eg when we resteal and hit top pair.
So boards with a couple of middle/low cards are good to float/bluff raise? The wetter or dryer the flop the better? Why isnt a 22-TT range fine? We can just raise when we miss sometimes. Not saying my range is that tight tho:P |
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Posted: Mon, 06 Oct 2008, 8:54am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| wakeup wrote: | Hrmm yeah, but even if we check one street with TP, they can still bet the turn and river and get us all in comfortably in a 3b pot.
Also its tough to take a similar line OOP, eg when we resteal and hit top pair.
So boards with a couple of middle/low cards are good to float/bluff raise? The wetter or dryer the flop the better? Why isnt a 22-TT range fine? We can just raise when we miss sometimes. Not saying my range is that tight tho:P |
The bold is the point. The only difference in value between checking the flop and betting the flop is that checking gets value from the times Villain either bluffs or thinks we are bluffing on a later street because we took a passive action here. The end result is that checking has a higher value overall than betting. |
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Posted: Wed, 08 Oct 2008, 10:08am Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 760
WPP: 168
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I've been flat-calling w/ TT and JJ in the blinds to obv blind steals, to set up situations where I'm well ahead of my opponents range... but I'm a bit lost post-flop.
What is your line against a standard reg, who is 13-10ish with a 30% ats? Are you c/r most flops that have a single (non-A) high card?.. Are we c/c?... donking most boards?? |
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Posted: Wed, 08 Oct 2008, 10:16am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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I tend to check more against people who c-bet too much, and donk more against people who call too much. From there you really just have to do what you can to exploit whatever you know about your Villain since you're out of position and have different options.
Just make sure that whatever you do there there is more to your range than JJ-TT. |
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Posted: Fri, 10 Oct 2008, 1:48am Post subject:
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2008
Posts: 77
WPP: 29
Location: Oz
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How do we handle middling hands after steals?? Like second pair sort of hands? Some examples:
(I run 18/16/2, ATS 50%)
Vs a 21/4 over 100 hands
Hero (CO): $232.00
BTN: $110.65
SB: $212.10
BB: $225.80
UTG: $40.00
UTG+1: $40.00
UTG+2: $320.65
MP1: $171.20
MP2: $217.85
Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is CO with 7c 8c
3 folds, MP1 calls $2, 1 fold, Hero raises to $10, 3 folds,
MP1 calls $8
Flop: ($23.00) Ah 8d 3s (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks
Turn: ($23.00) Th (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero ?
-----
Vs 2 unknowns
SB: $62.55
BB: $322.00
UTG: $103.45
MP: $200.00
Hero (CO): $197.00
BTN: $62.65
Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is CO with Td 8h
2 folds, Hero raises to $6, BTN calls $6, 1 fold, BB calls $4
Flop: ($19.00) 8s 5c Qc (3 players)
BB checks, Hero ?
---
BB 14/9/2 over 400, SB unknown
UTG+1: $192.00
MP1: $196.00
MP2: $214.05
Hero (CO): $197.00
BTN: $193.00
SB: $202.20
BB: $200.00
UTG: $198.00
Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is CO with 8d 8s
4 folds, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, SB calls $5, BB calls $4
Flop: ($18.00) Tc Ts 5h (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero ?? |
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Posted: Fri, 10 Oct 2008, 10:11am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| wakeup wrote: | How do we handle middling hands after steals?? Like second pair sort of hands? Some examples:
(I run 18/16/2, ATS 50%)
Vs a 21/4 over 100 hands
Hero (CO): $232.00
BTN: $110.65
SB: $212.10
BB: $225.80
UTG: $40.00
UTG+1: $40.00
UTG+2: $320.65
MP1: $171.20
MP2: $217.85
Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is CO with 7c 8c
3 folds, MP1 calls $2, 1 fold, Hero raises to $10, 3 folds,
MP1 calls $8
Flop: ($23.00) Ah 8d 3s (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks
Turn: ($23.00) Th (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero ?
-----
Vs 2 unknowns
SB: $62.55
BB: $322.00
UTG: $103.45
MP: $200.00
Hero (CO): $197.00
BTN: $62.65
Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is CO with Td 8h
2 folds, Hero raises to $6, BTN calls $6, 1 fold, BB calls $4
Flop: ($19.00) 8s 5c Qc (3 players)
BB checks, Hero ?
---
BB 14/9/2 over 400, SB unknown
UTG+1: $192.00
MP1: $196.00
MP2: $214.05
Hero (CO): $197.00
BTN: $193.00
SB: $202.20
BB: $200.00
UTG: $198.00
Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is CO with 8d 8s
4 folds, Hero raises to $6, 1 fold, SB calls $5, BB calls $4
Flop: ($18.00) Tc Ts 5h (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero ?? |
It's really a situational thing that you can't give a broad blanket statement to, but here are some guidelines to think about. If your opponent's range contains a lot of potential free cards, then you should be more likely to bet to protect your hand. In contrast, if you have K5s on a board of AK4r, it's probably better to check behind. If your opponent's range hits the flop with a lot of strength, like a 10/6 who defends his blinds 5% calls when you steal with 86s and the flop comes 762r, then you should be more likely to try to see a free turn and river since you're almost always behind his calling range. Finally, if you hit a flop with a lot of backdoor draws and you're not sure of how profitable a c-bet is, then it's fine to go ahead and see the turn. For example, you steal with A4s and get called by an unknown and the flop comes T52 giving you a backdoor flush draw, then it's fine to check behind since there are a lot of turn cards that could help you. |
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Posted: Fri, 10 Oct 2008, 11:31am Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 655
WPP: 81
Location: Northern BC, Canada
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Posted: Fri, 10 Oct 2008, 7:35pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| Keilah wrote: | | good discussion. OOP? |
Since you're OOP, your free card play-type options are limited. Against passive opponents you can check for showdown value more often. Against aggressive opponents you really just have to play poker and bite your positional disadvantage. |
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Posted: Fri, 17 Oct 2008, 12:30pm Post subject:
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2008
Posts: 77
WPP: 29
Location: Oz
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How do we handle our overpairs when they are well defined? I always think im getting played
Eg
We raise AA EP to 4bb, and get called by a random from MP then TAG on button overcalls 14/12/3. Flop is like J78 two flush. We bet 2/3, MP folds and TAG raises.
Feel like they can do this with any two our hand is reasonably well defined from EP, though we are raising any pair EP, and he knows it. Do we juz 3b/jam if he's likely to be semibluffing?
We're usually just ahead/way behind innit.
What factors pull us towards a 3b or a fold? |
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Posted: Fri, 17 Oct 2008, 12:50pm Post subject:
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2008
Posts: 77
WPP: 29
Location: Oz
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Oh and how do we handle middling pairs in MP/LP when we get 3b light from IP by a TAG?
Eg we have TT on CO raise to 4bb and get 3b by B to 14bb.
I call but then have difficulty when an over spikes  |
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Posted: Thu, 27 Nov 2008, 1:17pm Post subject:
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 60
WPP: 56
Location: in seclusion
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another fullring question concerning stela attemps from LP.
Lately i´ve been doing so relentlessly at NL10 with almost ATC (not true) either first in or behind one limper from button, CO and sometimes the highjack.
I do consider their fold to CB% and their fold SB/BB to steal%.
They fold a ton.
Considering my hand has some postflop value.
Do I miss value here by not letting them into the hand?
thx
hags |
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Posted: Thu, 27 Nov 2008, 9:53pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| hagscel wrote: | another fullring question concerning stela attemps from LP.
Lately i´ve been doing so relentlessly at NL10 with almost ATC (not true) either first in or behind one limper from button, CO and sometimes the highjack.
I do consider their fold to CB% and their fold SB/BB to steal%.
They fold a ton.
Considering my hand has some postflop value.
Do I miss value here by not letting them into the hand?
thx
hags |
I don't understand what you mean by your question but everything else you described in your post is completely standard. |
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Posted: Fri, 28 Nov 2008, 2:43am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 2372
WPP: 74
Location: Here and There
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Correct me if I am wrong, but what I think what hagscel is wondering is: With a hand like AT vs villains oop, should I be raising less in LP in an attempt to get value from them?
My answer is this: If you are confident that your post flop play is much stronger than your opponents - then yes. This requires either decent reads or just a solid game after the flop. The big money is made when big mistakes are made - this occurs most frequently when the pots are large ie. after the flop. |
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Posted: Fri, 28 Nov 2008, 7:01am Post subject:
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 60
WPP: 56
Location: in seclusion
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yeah,yeah,yeah....that`s what i meant.
 my question sounds trivial to me now, thanks.
hag |
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Posted: Sun, 30 Nov 2008, 3:19pm Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 7939
WPP: 71
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
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spoon
Name a standard 1/2 players biggest leak (in your opinion of course) |
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Posted: Sun, 30 Nov 2008, 4:32pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| Miffed22001 wrote: | spoon
Name a standard 1/2 players biggest leak (in your opinion of course) |
It's hard to name a particular "biggest" leak, but something I stress to my students that are trying to break into 1/2 is that they need to have some sort of balance in all of their possible ranges in common spots. If you call a raise in position, then raise a c-bet on the flop, you should have more in your range than sets or draws. If you call the flop then raise the turn, you should have more in your range than sets. And so on. These spots probably don't apply completely to you specifically, but I'm sure you could think of at least a few spots where your range is really easy to know.
I see a LOT of this type of thing from the people I help out at 100nl and 200nl, and since it's the first big thing to come to mind, I'll say balance. |
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Posted: Sat, 06 Dec 2008, 2:30pm Post subject:
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High Card
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 4
WPP: 29
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Have enjoyed reading this thread.
Finished reading Fnords thread on half-stacking and think it would suit me more than playing a full stack.
My question is, if you don't mind answering  , what would you recommend as a default* hand guide in EP/MP for the 50bb buy in strategy?
* I like to have a default hand guide, then adapt if/when I need to. Although I can see EP/MP play being more rigid in this case.
My first thought was,
EP 77-AA AQ KQs
MP 66-AA AJ KQ |
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Posted: Sat, 06 Dec 2008, 4:32pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| AirBall wrote: | Have enjoyed reading this thread.
Finished reading Fnords thread on half-stacking and think it would suit me more than playing a full stack.
My question is, if you don't mind answering , what would you recommend as a default* hand guide in EP/MP for the 50bb buy in strategy?
* I like to have a default hand guide, then adapt if/when I need to. Although I can see EP/MP play being more rigid in this case.
My first thought was,
EP 77-AA AQ KQs
MP 66-AA AJ KQ |
The 40-70bb range of buy-in is the one I have the least experience with, so it's hard to give you a good answer, but those sound alright to me. |
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Posted: Sat, 06 Dec 2008, 7:25pm Post subject:
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High Card
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 4
WPP: 29
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| Cool, thanks for the reply. |
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Posted: Mon, 08 Dec 2008, 3:58pm Post subject:
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Two Pair
Joined: 19 Feb 2006
Posts: 25
WPP: 75
Location: Sheffield, UK
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Posted: Mon, 08 Dec 2008, 4:28pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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1. I used to use Stars Planner and Bet Pot, both of which are available at www.overcards.com in the wiki. I don't use any AHK scripts now because everything I used them for is automated by Stars now for the most part.
2. My HUD is now, First Row: VP$IP, PFR, C-bet Flop, Fold to flop c-bet, Raise flop c-bet; Second Row: Flop AF, Turn AF, River AF, Attempt to Steal |
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Posted: Mon, 08 Dec 2008, 5:12pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 760
WPP: 168
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| do you know of any program that uses keyboard hotkeys for basic functions on stars (e.g. bet 3xbb or 4xbb)... cbet 3/4 etc. |
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Posted: Mon, 08 Dec 2008, 5:16pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Feb 2007
Posts: 3074
WPP: 65
Location: Spewing
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pokerpad does that kingnat
just to add to what spoon said, I also use stars assistant but only for the auto timebank clicker. |
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Posted: Wed, 10 Dec 2008, 8:47pm Post subject:
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High Card
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 4
WPP: 29
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| kingnat wrote: | | do you know of any program that uses keyboard hotkeys for basic functions on stars (e.g. bet 3xbb or 4xbb)... cbet 3/4 etc. |
StarsHotkeys |
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Posted: Thu, 11 Dec 2008, 11:12am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 24 Sep 2004
Posts: 1553
WPP: 132
Location: Nest of Douchebags
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Spoon,
Why am I only a winning player at FR?
Love,
Bigred
P.S. I'm not a low vpip nit either. |
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Posted: Thu, 11 Dec 2008, 3:11pm Post subject:
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Straight
Joined: 18 Dec 2007
Posts: 113
WPP: 152
Location: missoula, MT
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| what do you do to get better when your at the point when you realize every mistake u make immediately during a hand? and it feels like posting hands to discuss is a waste of time b/c u know what the correct play was? |
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Posted: Thu, 11 Dec 2008, 3:31pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 3393
WPP: 82
Location: the ether
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| DaddyDeez wrote: | | what do you do to get better when your at the point when you realize every mistake u make immediately during a hand? and it feels like posting hands to discuss is a waste of time b/c u know what the correct play was? |
realise that you are making a lot of mistakes that you don't recognise.... post the second and third biggest winning/losing hands from each session for a few days - get your unnoticed mistakes pointed out. |
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Posted: Sat, 13 Dec 2008, 5:19pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| kingnat wrote: | | do you know of any program that uses keyboard hotkeys for basic functions on stars (e.g. bet 3xbb or 4xbb)... cbet 3/4 etc. |
BetPot can be changed to do this, but there are other scripts mentioned already that are especially designed for that purpose.
| bigred wrote: | Spoon,
Why am I only a winning player at FR?
Love,
Bigred
P.S. I'm not a low vpip nit either. |
I'm not sure I understand the question.
| DaddyDeez wrote: | | what do you do to get better when your at the point when you realize every mistake u make immediately during a hand? and it feels like posting hands to discuss is a waste of time b/c u know what the correct play was? |
Start thinking about ranges in a more general sense and more big picture stuff, since this requires you to be able to find mistakes in individual spots. Also taking some time to tackle psychological and non-technique issues is important too. |
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