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Posted: Sun, 23 Mar 2008, 2:11pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 651
WPP: 134
Location: Leaf Nation
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| spoonitnow wrote: | I was asked the following in IRC, and I thought to share it here since he's currently playing:
| wesrman wrote: | | how can i get my hands to hold up |
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It was a joke.
Because i ran bad in 4 AIs in a row, and you told me to ask you a question. |
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Posted: Sun, 23 Mar 2008, 2:15pm Post subject:
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 101
WPP: 96
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| obv move up where they respect your raises. or flip for rolls. |
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Posted: Sun, 23 Mar 2008, 2:17pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| fat-b wrote: | | Played a hand yesterday. I have 44 i CO? UTG opens for 4xbb, utg+1 calls i join to. Flop comes K94, 2diamonds. They both check to me , and i bet 20 into a 28 pot or something. UTG folds , but UTG+1 makes a raise to 58 i think it was. Now .. In 6max this is a turboshove , but is it really +ev in FR games? Villain was standard 12 10 ish player i thinks. |
Yes, shove. |
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Posted: Sun, 23 Mar 2008, 2:17pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| wesrman wrote: | | spoonitnow wrote: | I was asked the following in IRC, and I thought to share it here since he's currently playing:
| wesrman wrote: | | how can i get my hands to hold up |
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It was a joke.
Because i ran bad in 4 AIs in a row, and you told me to ask you a question. |
My response wasn't a joke. Read it. Learn. Improve. Gogogogo. |
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Posted: Sun, 23 Mar 2008, 3:16pm Post subject:
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 79
WPP: 120
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shortstackers at microlimits:
plain old idiots?
or
do any of them know what they're doing?
everything i've seen says shortstacking at 50nl and below (or maybe 25, i dont remember precisely) is very -EV |
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Posted: Sun, 23 Mar 2008, 3:28pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| zxqv8 wrote: | shortstackers at microlimits:
plain old idiots?
or
do any of them know what they're doing?
everything i've seen says shortstacking at 50nl and below (or maybe 25, i dont remember precisely) is very -EV |
If someone is short-stacking micros then it's likely they're not very good at it.
Short-stacking at micros can be very very +EV because those players play bad obviously. |
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Posted: Sun, 23 Mar 2008, 4:39pm Post subject:
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Two Pair
Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 31
WPP: 216
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| spoonitnow wrote: |
In January at 200nl I went 1 ptbb/100 over my first 40k hands -- my adjusted equity showed that I should have been closer to 4 ptbb/100. |
How do you measure your adjusted equity? And when you are analyzing your game, do you have any tips/tricks for finding leaks? |
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Posted: Sun, 23 Mar 2008, 6:09pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1892
WPP: 109
Location: surfing in a room
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I dont know if this has been covered here yet, sorry if u have to quote one your answers.
To what extend do we need to consider our opponents level of thinking when we balance our ranges? |
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Posted: Sun, 23 Mar 2008, 7:09pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| Pasta wrote: | | spoonitnow wrote: |
In January at 200nl I went 1 ptbb/100 over my first 40k hands -- my adjusted equity showed that I should have been closer to 4 ptbb/100. |
How do you measure your adjusted equity? And when you are analyzing your game, do you have any tips/tricks for finding leaks? |
Get PokerEV (a free program) at www.pokerevsoftware.com, and run it. This will tell you a number of things that relate your Sklansky bucks to showdown winnings to actual winnings, and it will also tell you how good/bad you run on all-ins. When you compensate for how good/bad you run on all-ins, that's what's referred to as your adjusted equity.
Of course, PokerEV can do a LOT more than that. Check this other post I made to see how to use the advanced filtering system:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/forum/guide-to-advanced-filtering-in-pokerev-t67793.html
As far as finding leaks, every 50k hands or so I'll search for a number of things using PokerEV. I'll look at how I do in small, medium and large pots, and look at different hands specifically (how I'm playing flush draws, etc.). If you just poke around with it a bit you'll discover some neat stuff. Also, there is a post on 2+2 somewhere that outlines some things to look for in Poker Tracker, although I'm not sure of the url or who wrote it. |
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Posted: Sun, 23 Mar 2008, 7:14pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| XTR1000 wrote: | I dont know if this has been covered here yet, sorry if u have to quote one your answers.
To what extend do we need to consider our opponents level of thinking when we balance our ranges? |
I think it's very important, and is one of the main things we should consider when balancing our ranges.
I'm having a hard time putting this into words, but I think it comes down to knowing how our opponents play so we can exploit them. If they're not playing in a way that makes it necessary to really mix up our ranges, then it often becomes -EV to do so.
Now obviously we're going to want to mix things up a bit, but like I said, I definitely think that there is a point that it becomes overkill, especially at 100nl and 200nl.
I hope this makes sense. If not, feel free to ask some more specific questions and I'll see what I can do.
Edit: I don't particularly like how I answered this, but I'm having a tough time bridging my feelings about this into words, so I'll try to give an example or two of what I mean.
We know at 100nl and 200nl people often open limp/fold way too much. Well to exploit this, we're going to be raising over them with a lot of holdings. Soon enough, you'll start to notice the players who mix in some limp/raises and you'll notice who limp/folds a whole lot. Then, against each of these sub-types, you'll made a little tweak to how you play in addition to just raising over them a lot. Maybe against the guy who limp/3bets some you'll just limp behind more often with certain hands that play well multi-way (Axs, suited connectors, etc.) while against the guy who limp/folds too much you'll start raising with even more hands.
I think one of the more basic post-flop ways that we mix up our play at full ring is the treatment of draws in comparison "made hands" when we're in position but we aren't the pre-flop aggressor. Suppose a 12/10 raises from UTG+1 at a full table, MP2 calls, and we call with 65s in LP. The flop comes 943 rainbow, and UTG+1 leads out, MP2 folds. Let's assume villain will usually bet the flop and turn here so that we don't have to bring floating into the discussion just yet. We have three main options here:
1. The most passive line is to just call the flop, then if we miss, just call the turn (or check behind).
2. A slightly more aggressive line is to semi-bluff raise the flop. If we get called, we'll often have an option for a free card on the turn if we miss.
3. Call the flop, but raise the turn somewhat big. This is the "obvious" line that a set takes, so it can be a good semi-bluff.
Against different types of villains different lines are going to be more +EV than others. If we compare these lines to how we would play a set, we see that against those same types of villains, it might be more +EV to play a set a different way than we would play the draw above. In this way, we're considering our opponent's thinking and tendencies before we make a decision.
Now, on the other hand, game theory tells us that ideally we should probably sometimes be taking different lines against the same opponent with both a draw and a set. Against not-so-thinking opponents, I somewhat disagree. I think that as long as everyone at the table sees you play it both ways, you can still often choose the most +EV line against a particular opponent without taking too much consideration for balance against that particular villain.
In short-handed games I think this changes since we end up in similar spots against the same villains over and over and our image or reputation or whatever you want to call it becomes a bit more detailed.
I really hope this makes sense. If not, hit me up. |
Last edited by spoonitnow on Sun, 23 Mar 2008, 7:34pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Sun, 23 Mar 2008, 7:31pm Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 18762
WPP: 81
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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| XTR1000 wrote: | | To what extend do we need to consider our opponents level of thinking when we balance our ranges? |
I used to worry about this a lot, then I realised how much people suck at putting me on a hand when I just run a line that I think with get maximum value or even fast-play a very strong hand. Now I don't worry about it so much. There are enough variables in my decision process and so few hands hit showdown... |
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Posted: Sun, 23 Mar 2008, 7:37pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| Fnord wrote: | | XTR1000 wrote: | | To what extend do we need to consider our opponents level of thinking when we balance our ranges? |
I used to worry about this a lot, then I realised how much people suck at putting me on a hand when I just run a line that I think with get maximum value or even fast-play a very strong hand. Now I don't worry about it so much. There are enough variables in my decision process and so few hands hit showdown... |
If you play with people who suck at these things then that's often going to be the case. In full ring's current online state, I'm pretty sure you don't have to worry about this very much until 2/4. At 1/2 you should probably be making *some* considerations against particular opponents, but definitely not the majority. At 0.50/1 it's laughable to consider that these guys might be literate.
I'm like you though in the sense that I feel like there are enough variables that determine what line I take in certain spots that it creates enough inherent random-ish-ness as it is. |
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Posted: Sun, 23 Mar 2008, 10:03pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 2127
WPP: 48
Location: Gainesville
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| You guys are all nits, raise small pocket pairs from all positions. |
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Posted: Mon, 24 Mar 2008, 7:55am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| Deanglow wrote: | | You guys are all nits, raise small pocket pairs from all positions. |
I run 17/15 as it is. |
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Posted: Mon, 24 Mar 2008, 11:05am Post subject:
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High Card
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 13
WPP: 207
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Ok, probably a stoopid question from a noob regarding leaving money behind on a table/allotted session times. We've been two/three-tabling for five hours at FR $10NL and we're nearing the end of our allotted session time - it's getting late etc. On one table we've slowly built our 100bb buy-in to around 165bb by playing solidly, making a good part of that against a 45/15 who hasn't been playing a great game, but has built up a stack which currently stands around 170bb. The rest of the table is playing fairly weak against this opp so we've been able to pick at his stack pretty much uncontested.
We hold AA and to our joy we end up ai pf way ahead of this opp's hand. But he gets lucky and takes our stack so that we are now down both our hard-earned 65bb and 1 buy-in.
Assuming we do not tilt, that opp stays at the table, and that we are still capable of playing well enough to take a load of that money back given another couple of hours, do we extend our session to recoup, or is this bad discipline?
On a more basic level, I saw in a previous post you set an alarm to go off when you intend to stop a session. How strictly do you stick to your allotted session periods? Are there any circumstances that will cause you to play way, way beyond your pre-determined session time, or do you consider this -EV in the long run? |
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Posted: Mon, 24 Mar 2008, 11:36am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 2127
WPP: 48
Location: Gainesville
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| spoonitnow wrote: | | Deanglow wrote: | | You guys are all nits, raise small pocket pairs from all positions. |
I run 17/15 as it is. |
That's weird. I raise pairs everywhere and run 15/11. I guess you isolate more than I do? Not sure. I think we should do a prop bet on who can make more at 1/2 FR in a month. I need some motivation. |
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Posted: Mon, 24 Mar 2008, 1:00pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| seren wrote: | Ok, probably a stoopid question from a noob regarding leaving money behind on a table/allotted session times. We've been two/three-tabling for five hours at FR $10NL and we're nearing the end of our allotted session time - it's getting late etc. On one table we've slowly built our 100bb buy-in to around 165bb by playing solidly, making a good part of that against a 45/15 who hasn't been playing a great game, but has built up a stack which currently stands around 170bb. The rest of the table is playing fairly weak against this opp so we've been able to pick at his stack pretty much uncontested.
We hold AA and to our joy we end up ai pf way ahead of this opp's hand. But he gets lucky and takes our stack so that we are now down both our hard-earned 65bb and 1 buy-in.
Assuming we do not tilt, that opp stays at the table, and that we are still capable of playing well enough to take a load of that money back given another couple of hours, do we extend our session to recoup, or is this bad discipline?
On a more basic level, I saw in a previous post you set an alarm to go off when you intend to stop a session. How strictly do you stick to your allotted session periods? Are there any circumstances that will cause you to play way, way beyond your pre-determined session time, or do you consider this -EV in the long run? |
The only things that matter in the situation you laid out is that there is a bad player with a big stack at a table you have access to. If you can continue to play a +EV game, then it's +EV. If not, then it's not.
For me, I stick pretty strictly to the time frame that I set aside to play. This is more of a personality and lifestyle choice than anything. I set up a schedule for myself each day and try to stick to it the best I can.
Now if there was some huge donk that I had position on and was deep and it was getting towards the end of my allotted time to play or whatever, then unless I had something really important to do afterwards, I'd probably continue playing, at least on that one table, until the guy left. |
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Posted: Mon, 24 Mar 2008, 1:02pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| Deanglow wrote: | | spoonitnow wrote: | | Deanglow wrote: | | You guys are all nits, raise small pocket pairs from all positions. |
I run 17/15 as it is. |
That's weird. I raise pairs everywhere and run 15/11. I guess you isolate more than I do? Not sure. I think we should do a prop bet on who can make more at 1/2 FR in a month. I need some motivation. |
There are a lot more 10/8 types to molest at my lowly stakes. I probably push what's +EV to play with from all positions to be honest.
In a month or two I might take you up on that.  |
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Posted: Mon, 24 Mar 2008, 1:05pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 651
WPP: 134
Location: Leaf Nation
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| This is kind of a broad question, but i feel like im leaking money by playing draws too aggro. Can you give some examples of how to play certain draws IP vs OOP, and maybe exlain a bit about fold equity. |
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Posted: Mon, 24 Mar 2008, 1:21pm Post subject:
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Two Pair
Joined: 23 Jan 2008
Posts: 31
WPP: 216
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I would really like to hear more about how you adjust your play against various opponents with draws and made hands. I usually aim for an unexploitable strategy that makes villain neutral about calling or folding given my range, expecting my opponents to over adjust one way or the other. I like the idea of adjusting this to exploit my opponents tendencies, but I am not sure what I should be looking for.
I will make a few guesses. Turn cbet is probably an important stat? If they frequently 2-barrel, then tend to raise the flop with draws and just call with sets? On the other hand, if turn cbet is low tend to float the draws and raise the sets on the flop? It seems like a few custom stats would be extremely useful here: Fold to flop cbet raise, fold to turn cbet raise, and fold to turn bet after flop cbet called? Those should be fairly simple to add in PT3.
Outside of stats, my most important read on an opponent is whether they are willing to stack off light with me. Once I show down a few draws and get them willing to stack off light, would it be more profitable to just stop playing SCs against them, or do you think you pick up enough missed flops to make them worthwhile regardless?
Also, are there some opponents that are aware enough to catch on to your adjustments? If so, how do you pinpoint them and do you revert to a balanced strategy against them? |
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Posted: Mon, 24 Mar 2008, 1:57pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| wesrman wrote: | | This is kind of a broad question, but i feel like im leaking money by playing draws too aggro. Can you give some examples of how to play certain draws IP vs OOP, and maybe exlain a bit about fold equity. |
I'll start off with a basic background on fold equity, give some principles to think about when considering playing a draw aggressively, and then give a couple of examples of when you should and when you shouldn't be aggressive with draws.
Fold equity is the equity you have from the chance that someone folds. So say in 25nl you raise to $1 preflop and get called by the big blind. The pot is then $1.10. He checks, and you bet $0.75. If he folds 40.5% of the time, then your bet breaks even just on fold equity alone. The math involved is as follows: 40.5% of the time you'll win $1.10, for an EV of $0.446, and 59.5% of the time you'll lose $0.75, for an EV of $0.446. Notice that the cards don't matter as long as he folds 40.5% of the time. Now the catch is in that 59.5% of the time he doesn't fold because we won't always lose the hand then, especially if we have a strong (8+ outs) draw.
There are two key reasons that you should ever be aggressive with a draw. The first reason is that you think you have good fold equity. The second is when you're disguising your hand (or balancing your range, however you want to think about it). Sometimes both of these reasons will come into play.
Likewise, there are two main reasons you shouldn't play a draw aggressively. First, if your opponent doesn't size his bets well, often it's more +EV to just let him give you great odds to call. Second, if there are a number of people to act behind you, being aggressive with your draw can be dangerous since if they raise over you, you might end up putting money in the pot and have to fold to their raise. Additionally, if you raise a draw with players to act behind you, they are less likely to flat call which would improve your effective pot odds.
Here are a few examples that bring some of these principles into play. Assume all hands are 25nl 8-handed with $0.10/0.25 blinds and $25 stacks, and we have a 14/12 or so tight-aggressive image.
Example 1:
We raise preflop from UTG+1 to $1 with A  J , and only the CO (14/10/2.0) calls. The flop comes K 9  3 giving us the nut flush draw (along with an overcard) and the pot is $2.10. This is a good place to bet since we can figure to have good fold equity. Our opponent will probably continue with hands like AK or KQ, might call with JJ or TT, and will probably call with lesser flush draws. Obviously villain is going to continue with 99 or 33. The hands that he folds are all of the suited connectors that missed and most of the small pairs. When you consider his range, we see that we have good fold equity and we even might be able to stack some people with flush over flush.
Example 2:
A tight/somewhat nitty player (say 12/9/1.0) in MP1 raises to $1, a loose/passive (say 24/3/1.2) HJ calls, and we call on the button with 6  5 . The flop comes K 9 3 , giving us a flush draw, and the pot is $3.35. MP1 leads out for $2.25, HJ folds, and it's $2.25 to us with a pot of $5.60. Our pot odds aren't terrible, but this is a good place to raise sometimes to disguise our hand. If we raise here sometimes, it's hard for villain to put us on a hand since we could have a set. (This has the added benefit of disguising our sets as well.) We figure to have some fold equity as well, since he could easily have been making a continuation bet with AQ or AJ. If villain calls and checks the turn, we also get the option to check behind the turn for a free look at the river.
Example 3:
A 13/9 raises UTG to $1, MP2 calls, we call with T 9 in the HJ, the CO and button both call, and both blinds call. The flop comes A J 2 and the pot is $7.00. Both blinds check, UTG leads out for $4.50, and MP2 folds. This is a bad place to play the draw aggressively for a number of reasons. First, we have little to no fold equity. Second, we're getting decent odds to draw on the flop at a little over 2.5:1. Third, there are four people to act behind us, and if we raise, it's doubtful any of them will flat call. Here, a call is best. If someone raises behind you, then continue if you think you have the odds to do so.
I hope this helps. |
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Posted: Mon, 24 Mar 2008, 2:10pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| Pasta wrote: | I would really like to hear more about how you adjust your play against various opponents with draws and made hands. I usually aim for an unexploitable strategy that makes villain neutral about calling or folding given my range, expecting my opponents to over adjust one way or the other. I like the idea of adjusting this to exploit my opponents tendencies, but I am not sure what I should be looking for.
I will make a few guesses. Turn cbet is probably an important stat? If they frequently 2-barrel, then tend to raise the flop with draws and just call with sets? On the other hand, if turn cbet is low tend to float the draws and raise the sets on the flop? It seems like a few custom stats would be extremely useful here: Fold to flop cbet raise, fold to turn cbet raise, and fold to turn bet after flop cbet called? Those should be fairly simple to add in PT3.
Outside of stats, my most important read on an opponent is whether they are willing to stack off light with me. Once I show down a few draws and get them willing to stack off light, would it be more profitable to just stop playing SCs against them, or do you think you pick up enough missed flops to make them worthwhile regardless?
Also, are there some opponents that are aware enough to catch on to your adjustments? If so, how do you pinpoint them and do you revert to a balanced strategy against them? |
Game theory tells us that unless our opponents are playing optimal poker, to achieve the best profits we should play a strategy that is by definition exploitable. I talked about playing draws aggressively in my post above replying to wesrman's question, but I'll continue along a bit.
Against an opponent who double-barrels too much, a line I like to throw in is a raise on the turn (looking like a set) with my strong draws occasionally while lowering the amount of draws I raise with on the flop a bit. The reasons for this are fairly obvious, but I don't think much other major adjustments are needed if this is the only change.
If a villain will stack off light, then you should stop being nearly as aggressive with draws since they will pay you off when you hit, giving you huge implied odds. Your sets and draws will go way up in value against these players if you play them almost face up.
Until you reach 200nl+, opponents are barely aware that their brain is attached to their spinal cord. Once players start catching on to my minor adjustments, I start playing against them like they're not total retards. |
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Posted: Mon, 24 Mar 2008, 5:00pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1892
WPP: 109
Location: surfing in a room
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1) Default play w/ JJ from blinds vs pfr 4<x<7 from MP?
2) Smart 3betting range from blinds vs decent 11/10ish shortstacks raise from LP?
3) We´re BB, folded to SB who makes it 4BB. 3bet vs call & float flop? Ranges?
4) Max BB won/hand one can expect for the blinds?
5) Why are my blinds such a spew?
6) Bigest leak aming 100NL/200NL TAGs
7) Thanks a lot for taking the time, this thread rules. |
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Posted: Mon, 24 Mar 2008, 7:52pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| XTR1000 wrote: | 1) Default play w/ JJ from blinds vs pfr 4<x<7 from MP?
2) Smart 3betting range from blinds vs decent 11/10ish shortstacks raise from LP?
3) We´re BB, folded to SB who makes it 4BB. 3bet vs call & float flop? Ranges?
4) Max BB won/hand one can expect for the blinds?
5) Why are my blinds such a spew?
6) Bigest leak aming 100NL/200NL TAGs
7) Thanks a lot for taking the time, this thread rules. |
1: Against a 100bb stack, I call more the closer x is to 4, and 3-bet the close x is to 7. Against a 50bb stack, I'm much more likely to call and lead a lot of flops. That particular spot depends on some other factors, for me at least.
2: I base this decision more off of their attempt to steal than their VP$IP/PFR. If they're 25bb or less, I just put them all-in with something like AJs+, TT+, KQs or so. If they're 25bb-50bb, then I'll 3-bet according to that stat as well.
3: What? You lost me here.
4: From what I've seen, going for -0.10 ptbb/100 is worth shooting for.
5: You probably defend too much or too little or are running bad or pick bad opponents to play against rah rah rah. Post some stats and we'll go from there because it's a tricky subject.
6: Just in general, they haven't gotten past their 25nl ubertaggnit game. I'm sort of in a hurry so I can't answer this the best that I can, but I really think their biggest leak is they don't try to improve.
7: Well it was something to do. I had no idea there would be as many people asking stuff. |
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Posted: Mon, 24 Mar 2008, 7:59pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 651
WPP: 134
Location: Leaf Nation
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Thanks Spoon, much appreciated.
<3 <3 <3 <3 |
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Posted: Mon, 24 Mar 2008, 9:41pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 1630
WPP: 84
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| XTR1000 wrote: | | 7) Thanks a lot for taking the time, this thread rules. |
+1
This thread has been ridiculously informative for me.
Cheers spoon! |
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Posted: Tue, 25 Mar 2008, 8:44am Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 1103
WPP: 142
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| your standard opener seems to be 4x, mine is still 3x. What do you think are the advantages/disadvantages of 4 vs 3. |
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Posted: Tue, 25 Mar 2008, 9:01am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| pgil wrote: | | your standard opener seems to be 4x, mine is still 3x. What do you think are the advantages/disadvantages of 4 vs 3. |
It basically comes down to the fact that raising to 4x has more fold equity. When playing after limpers and when opening in late position, it becomes fairly important. |
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Posted: Mon, 28 Apr 2008, 9:48am Post subject:
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 101
WPP: 96
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Dear Spoon.
Should i stop playing No limit texas holdem the cadilac of poker baby , and switch over to pot limit omahaha?
PLEASE RESPONDS |
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Posted: Mon, 28 Apr 2008, 5:45pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| fat-b wrote: | Dear Spoon.
Should i stop playing No limit texas holdem the cadilac of poker baby , and switch over to pot limit omahaha?
PLEASE RESPONDS |
Not quite yet, but I would definitely get decent at the game. |
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Posted: Wed, 30 Apr 2008, 1:40am Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
Posts: 402
WPP: 61
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very nice thread, thanx for your efforts:
1) very short stacks: I see these 20bb stacks. some are 4/4 others are 8/8. if you preflop raise 4xbb and one of these guys shoves. what do u need to call? I often find myself running into low PP, AK, AQ, and ofcoarse AA, KK , QQ. do you think I should ever fold AK, AQ against these types? what about smaller PP?
2) what do you do with all your Poker Stars points?
-beck |
Last edited by Beck on Wed, 30 Apr 2008, 3:23am; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Wed, 30 Apr 2008, 2:06am Post subject:
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Straight
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 151
WPP: 147
Location: ATX
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| when you first sit down do you wait for the BB or not? |
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Posted: Wed, 30 Apr 2008, 11:41am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| Beck wrote: | very nice thread, thanx for your efforts:
1) very short stacks: I see these 20bb stacks. some are 4/4 others are 8/8. if you preflop raise 4xbb and one of these guys shoves. what do u need to call? I often find myself running into low PP, AK, AQ, and ofcoarse AA, KK , QQ. do you think I should ever fold AK, AQ against these types? what about smaller PP?
2) what do you do with all your Poker Stars points?
-beck |
1. 99+, AQ+ is probably fine to call there.
2. Up until recently I've been spending them on the $1500 bonuses and the occasional book, but the concierge program is more +EV than the bonuses than I thought it was originally, so that's probably where I'll be using most of my points from now on.
| tom wrote: | | when you first sit down do you wait for the BB or not? |
Yes, always.
If you post in the CO then it's roughly 0EV at a 9-handed table IF nobody leaves before you get to your BB, but everyone won't stay 100% of the time so it's +EV to wait. |
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Posted: Sun, 28 Sep 2008, 8:47pm Post subject:
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 60
WPP: 56
Location: in seclusion
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hi spoon,
hope this thread has not been declared to be dead....
on what kind of equipment do you multitable (monitorsize and machine)??
best rregards
hags |
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Posted: Sun, 28 Sep 2008, 10:19pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 3393
WPP: 82
Location: the ether
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| this thread should be stickied. |
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Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 5:24pm Post subject:
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One Pair
Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 23
WPP: 139
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| spoonitnow wrote: | | XTR1000 wrote: | 1) Default play w/ JJ from blinds vs pfr 4<x<7 from MP?
2) Smart 3betting range from blinds vs decent 11/10ish shortstacks raise from LP?
3) We´re BB, folded to SB who makes it 4BB. 3bet vs call & float flop? Ranges?
4) Max BB won/hand one can expect for the blinds?
5) Why are my blinds such a spew?
6) Bigest leak aming 100NL/200NL TAGs
7) Thanks a lot for taking the time, this thread rules. |
1: Against a 100bb stack, I call more the closer x is to 4, and 3-bet the close x is to 7. Against a 50bb stack, I'm much more likely to call and lead a lot of flops. That particular spot depends on some other factors, for me at least.
2: I base this decision more off of their attempt to steal than their VP$IP/PFR. If they're 25bb or less, I just put them all-in with something like AJs+, TT+, KQs or so. If they're 25bb-50bb, then I'll 3-bet according to that stat as well.
3: What? You lost me here.
4: From what I've seen, going for -0.10 ptbb/100 is worth shooting for.
5: You probably defend too much or too little or are running bad or pick bad opponents to play against rah rah rah. Post some stats and we'll go from there because it's a tricky subject.
6: Just in general, they haven't gotten past their 25nl ubertaggnit game. I'm sort of in a hurry so I can't answer this the best that I can, but I really think their biggest leak is they don't try to improve.
7: Well it was something to do. I had no idea there would be as many people asking stuff. |
What is your reasoning behind the donk lead here? Are you looking to control pot size mainly or polarizing villan's range? |
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Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 5:55pm Post subject:
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
Posts: 66
WPP: 142
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| Right now my preflop play is too passive, I run at 15/8 on average, and on the days I torture myself to raise more 15/10. I know it's not the best preflop stats, so I'm wondering, what, when, why and how should I raise PF for better results. |
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Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 6:01pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| hagscel wrote: | hi spoon,
hope this thread has not been declared to be dead....
on what kind of equipment do you multitable (monitorsize and machine)??
best rregards
hags |
I have a 20" widescreen LCD monitor that isn't that great of a quality but it was on sale. My computer has Windows XP home running a 2.2GHz Dual Core Intel chip with 1 GB of RAM. Previously I had two mismatched 17" CRTs running on an old beat up Dell machine that I'd had for years. I could 24-table cash games with PT2 and PAHUD and AHK scripts running (along with other stuff occasionally like mIRC and Firefox) with no problems. You don't really need any kind of big ass monitor or super fast computer to multitable.
| daven wrote: | | this thread should be stickied. |
I don't think so, but it's nice of you to say that. |
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Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 6:05pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| Primus Sucks wrote: | | spoonitnow wrote: | | XTR1000 wrote: | 1) Default play w/ JJ from blinds vs pfr 4<x<7 from MP?
2) Smart 3betting range from blinds vs decent 11/10ish shortstacks raise from LP?
3) We´re BB, folded to SB who makes it 4BB. 3bet vs call & float flop? Ranges?
4) Max BB won/hand one can expect for the blinds?
5) Why are my blinds such a spew?
6) Bigest leak aming 100NL/200NL TAGs
7) Thanks a lot for taking the time, this thread rules. |
1: Against a 100bb stack, I call more the closer x is to 4, and 3-bet the close x is to 7. Against a 50bb stack, I'm much more likely to call and lead a lot of flops. That particular spot depends on some other factors, for me at least.
2: I base this decision more off of their attempt to steal than their VP$IP/PFR. If they're 25bb or less, I just put them all-in with something like AJs+, TT+, KQs or so. If they're 25bb-50bb, then I'll 3-bet according to that stat as well.
3: What? You lost me here.
4: From what I've seen, going for -0.10 ptbb/100 is worth shooting for.
5: You probably defend too much or too little or are running bad or pick bad opponents to play against rah rah rah. Post some stats and we'll go from there because it's a tricky subject.
6: Just in general, they haven't gotten past their 25nl ubertaggnit game. I'm sort of in a hurry so I can't answer this the best that I can, but I really think their biggest leak is they don't try to improve.
7: Well it was something to do. I had no idea there would be as many people asking stuff. |
What is your reasoning behind the donk lead here? Are you looking to control pot size mainly or polarizing villan's range? |
A little bit of both at the time. I don't like to check there since a c/c gives Villain a free card so to speak to hit an over, and a c/r bloats the pot. |
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Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 6:06pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| gosam wrote: | | Right now my preflop play is too passive, I run at 15/8 on average, and on the days I torture myself to raise more 15/10. I know it's not the best preflop stats, so I'm wondering, what, when, why and how should I raise PF for better results. |
In general, you probably call too much preflop and raise too little. I went digging through my My Documents folder to find something I wrote for a new guy a while back about what to open raise from where:
Early Position
UTG, UTG+1, and MP1 are what I consider to be early position. I prefer that we open raise something like AQ+, 55+ from UTG, add AJs and KQs in UTG+1, and add AJo and KQo in MP1. We’re obviously going to be pretty tight in general in early position, especially when we’re facing a raise. To an early position raise, we should be 3-betting something like QQ+, AK all of the time and JJ-TT if the player is somewhat loose. Also, we should be calling with all other pocket pairs if the implied odds are good.
Middle Position
MP2 and HJ are what I consider to be middle position. When we’re open raising from MP2, I suggest opening with the MP1 requirements plus any suited broadways (any two cards A-T), and any pocket pair. From HJ, I suggest adding any broadway, as well as A9s-A8s and suited connectors T9s-87s. When facing a middle position raise, we can start to widen our 3-betting range a little if the player is loose enough to warrant it. Again, we should be calling middle position raises with good implied-odds hands like pocket pairs and suited connectors.
Late Position
The CO and BU are what I consider to be late position. When open raising from late position, we have a lot of options based on how tight the players left to act are. If they’re all very tight (tighter than 12/10) then we can often profitably raise with almost any two cards. In general, however, from the CO I recommend always open raising all of the HJ hands plus any suited connector 54s+, any suited ace. From the BU, I recommend always open raising the CO hands plus any suited 1-gapper 64s+, any suited king, and any ace.
Small Blind
Open raising from the small blind is based almost entirely on who is in the big blind. For reference, however, I recommend always opening any two cards 9 or higher, any pocket pair, and any suited connector. If your opponent is very tight, then you can often raise any two and be profitable, but we’ll stick with this open raising range for now. When facing limpers, you should be completing the blind with any good implied odds hand. The hardest part about playing the small blind is that you’ll be in the worst position post-flop in every single hand you play. |
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Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008, 6:48pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 3603
WPP: 99
Location: Your place or my place
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| Quote: | | If I bought in for less then I know I could beat it, but short-stacking is for homos and future cops. |
Im thankful that you do not believe them to be one in the same. Cheers! |
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Posted: Wed, 01 Oct 2008, 4:22am Post subject:
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 60
WPP: 56
Location: in seclusion
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so, thanks for replying.
multitabling for me atm is playing 3-4 for tables as i still have to concentrate on details (not accidentally hitting the fold button with aces etc;)).
nice to have this thread back to life.
now thinking of a suitable question...dont want to spam too much and steal precious time. hrrrm, cant come up with something detailed. questions seem to fit better in the beginners circle.
hags |
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Posted: Thu, 02 Oct 2008, 12:03am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| euphoricism wrote: | | Quote: | | If I bought in for less then I know I could beat it, but short-stacking is for homos and future cops. |
Im thankful that you do not believe them to be one in the same. Cheers! |
I think you finally understand why I ragged on you for so long about short-stacking NL. |
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Posted: Thu, 02 Oct 2008, 1:47am Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 7006
WPP: 71
Location: Pwnsylvania
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Assume 100 or 200nl FR: we Open AQo in MP and a mediocre nit calls otb
flop comes AK7r
what's our plan yo? |
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Posted: Thu, 02 Oct 2008, 9:06am Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 255
WPP: 179
Location: VA USA
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| On a typical stars 50 or 100nl table, lots of regs 1 or 2 fish. Which hand would you rather open UTG, 44 or KQs and why/why not? Related...are blockers very important in an unopened pot in early/mid position? |
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Posted: Thu, 02 Oct 2008, 11:17am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| bigspenda73 wrote: | Assume 100 or 200nl FR: we Open AQo in MP and a mediocre nit calls otb
flop comes AK7r
what's our plan yo? |
I check here a lot. Villain's range doesn't hit the flop very hard, so we get some value out of bluffs, but more importantly we force him to take that weaker range to another street where he might be more prone to call a bet than he is right now. We can't be worried so much about losing value since the only hands that we get 3 streets of betting in against beat us. It's possible that c/c c/c and betting the river is the best EV line against certain Villains.
Now some people would chime in and say that we should continuation bet here since we would continuation bet with other hands that miss, and that's why I check here "a lot" instead of "every time". In general when dealing with issues of balance, we should be making the most +EV play the majority of the time, which is something you discover fairly quickly in game theory when you start solving toy games for optimal strategy when that strategy is mixed. |
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Posted: Thu, 02 Oct 2008, 11:21am Post subject: Re: Ask Spoony About Full Ring
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Full House
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Posts: 753
WPP: 153
Location: Ohio
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| spoonitnow wrote: | Ask away.
I'll answer every question.
Even if it's not about full ring. |
On a not particularly loose/spewy type 9-handed full ring table, in later positions, how many limpers ahead warrant the ATC call?
For example, on the button, with crap, 5 limpers ahead, not expecting raises from the SB or BB, is a call justified on the off chance of hitting two pair or better? (certain ATC are obviously better, but I'm talking near trash)?
Or is this type of play ever justified? |
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Posted: Thu, 02 Oct 2008, 11:28am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| allabout wrote: | | On a typical stars 50 or 100nl table, lots of regs 1 or 2 fish. Which hand would you rather open UTG, 44 or KQs and why/why not? Related...are blockers very important in an unopened pot in early/mid position? |
The first question is really a big fat it depends, but more specifically it depends on the particulars of the table composition. The more short stacks, the more inclined I am to prefer KQs. The less 3-betting going on, the more inclined I am to open 44. In general I fold both of these UTG in most circumstances.
For your second question, it doesn't really matter that much. What a blocker does in a nutshell is change the way an opponent's range is distributed. For a simple example, if a Villain's range is {KK+} and we hold 22, then that range is 50% AA and 50% KK. If instead we hold A2, then that range is 33% AA and 66% KK. If instead we hold KK, then that range is 85.7% AA and 14.3% KK. If we hold AA on a flop of Kxx, then that range is 25% AA and 75% KK. And so on and so forth. There aren't really any considerations that I can think of that really matter that much for blockers when you're opening in early or middle position. I mean, if you hold AK then it's less likely your opponents will continue because their range contains less hands that hold one of those cards, but that wouldn't be the difference between open-raising AK and open-folding AK. The thing is that the hands that are really good for blockers are good because they contain high cards, which usually makes them good enough to open in the first place, like AA, AK, KK, AQ, QQ, and so on. |
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Posted: Thu, 02 Oct 2008, 11:31am Post subject: Re: Ask Spoony About Full Ring
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 25 Sep 2005
Posts: 3549
WPP: 101
Location: The Grind
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| Monty3038 wrote: | | spoonitnow wrote: | Ask away.
I'll answer every question.
Even if it's not about full ring. |
On a not particularly loose/spewy type 9-handed full ring table, in later positions, how many limpers ahead warrant the ATC call?
For example, on the button, with crap, 5 limpers ahead, not expecting raises from the SB or BB, is a call justified on the off chance of hitting two pair or better? (certain ATC are obviously better, but I'm talking near trash)?
Or is this type of play ever justified? |
I rarely call after any number of limpers without some sort of playability. That means, unless I have a small pocket pair, suitedness or connectedness, I fold. The problem with playing something like 83o is that the only hand you can make to win much money is two pair or trips which is fairly rare even with our good odds in consideration, but even if we make those hands the only way we usually get someone else to put much money in the pot is if we're behind. |
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Posted: Sat, 04 Oct 2008, 6:32am Post subject:
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3-of-a-Kind
Joined: 02 Mar 2008
Posts: 77
WPP: 29
Location: Oz
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So when we 3b AQ/AJ vs reasonably loose TAGs, are we playin for stacks when we hit TP?
What kind of boards do u bluff raise when tags are cbetting too much? |
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