| Author |
Message |
|
Posted: Fri, 03 Jul 2009, 12:28am Post subject: AKo In 4-bet Pot 100NL
|
 |
|
4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 3037
WPP: 73
Location: Not Giving In
|
|
Alright so I am very new to the table. I played probably 7 hands at the time but was running hot and raised 6 of the 7 including 3betting 2 hands (with the goods) and getting folds preflop. None were against this opponent. I had him pegged at around 23/17 with an 11.1 3bet%. What do I do on the flop? Start c/f in whiffed 4bet pots? I've been flatted a lot more in 4bet pots in general lately and it's confusing me when I whiff. I figured his range was definitely tight but the flop took away JJ for the most part (a likely holding imo) and probably would have felted QQ+/AK I assume. He could flat with like AK in which case I wanted to steal the pot from. TT can't be happy with the flop, right? Maybe he can have a weird AQ, right? I am horrible at reading his hand and do not know what to do. If I bet, I should be calling, right? Seems close...
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
SB ($248.75)
BB ($100)
Hero (UTG) ($100)
MP ($132.70)
Button ($14.50)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with K , A
Hero bets $3.50, MP raises to $9, 3 folds, Hero raises to $21, MP calls $12
Flop: ($43.50) J , J, 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $22 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri, 03 Jul 2009, 1:11am Post subject:
|
|
|
2009
Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 1656
WPP: 64
Location: bluffing scare cards
|
|
| if I was gonna bet I would bet like 13 instead of 22 however I think c/f is probably the plan. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri, 03 Jul 2009, 1:21am Post subject:
|
|
|
Straight Flush
Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 5681
WPP: 126
Location: Ballarat, Australia
|
|
| If people are going to flat 4-bets in position, and we just play fit or fold on the flop, then I cant see how 4-betting to a 'std' amount remains good. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri, 03 Jul 2009, 1:22am Post subject:
|
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 1915
WPP: 60
Location: Montreal
|
|
| +1 for c/f although i don't mind 22$ having the Ac |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri, 03 Jul 2009, 6:39am Post subject:
|
|
|
Straight
Joined: 28 Oct 2008
Posts: 185
WPP: 46
Location: England
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri, 03 Jul 2009, 7:07am Post subject:
|
|
|
Full House
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 813
WPP: 69
Location: in my dad's account making him manies
|
|
| bjsaust wrote: | | If people are going to flat 4-bets in position, and we just play fit or fold on the flop, then I cant see how 4-betting to a 'std' amount remains good. |
Well you have to keep your 4b's the same amount or you'll be committing yourself when you bluff.
I think you're overlooking the fact that it's going to be difficult for villain to exploit us c/f'ing AK on this flop 100bb's deep by flatting our 4b's with a wide range. Our 4b'ing range is (probably) strong enough that calling pre w/out QQ+/AK is already a costly mistake. Plus villain can't know that we definitely have AK and even with AK we're going to be able to bet and stack off on the flop a good amount of the time. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri, 03 Jul 2009, 8:20am Post subject:
|
|
|
Strike 3
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 5869
WPP: 52
|
|
at first I was going to say $13 on the flop, $18 on the turn
but TT is super happy to just call/call here because those two bets are not even the pot right now
remember that when people flat 4bs it's usually with weak hands
because if he had AA/KK here he'd be losing value vs. AK by not sticking it in
so he could have a hand as bad as 99 or AJs
Board: Js Jc 6c
Hand 0: 48.844% { AcKh }
Hand 1: 51.156% { JJ-99, AQs-AJs, AQo }
so maybe c/f is not the greatest idea unless he like shoves
we might actually decide to call a tiny bet if villain bets $13 instead of us betting and see if we can spike a club and do something with that
an ace or a king makes us have 80% equity vs. that range, a club makes us a slight favorite
Parasurama: it's not a given that flatting 4bs preflop is exploitable because it depends on our 4b range, if we're a little frisky with 4bing and he has position flatting could very well be +EV (although shoving could be more so) |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri, 03 Jul 2009, 9:13am Post subject:
|
|
|
Almost as bad as that idiot redgrape
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 6593
WPP: 74
|
|
| I'd prob flat the 3bet. As played i'd c/f. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri, 03 Jul 2009, 9:17am Post subject:
|
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 3037
WPP: 73
Location: Not Giving In
|
|
| IowaSkinsFan wrote: | | I'd prob flat the 3bet. As played i'd c/f. |
What kind of range do you put him on? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri, 03 Jul 2009, 11:17am Post subject:
|
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 1915
WPP: 60
Location: Montreal
|
|
any pair is not folding to a flop cbet, and AQ is often checking behind.. thats why we c/f..this would only be wrong if his range is made up of a LOT of pure air..
A reason to bet and shove some turns is because we have the Ac, but I still c/f is best. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri, 03 Jul 2009, 12:19pm Post subject:
|
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 3388
WPP: 82
Location: the ether
|
|
check-fold. He thought your 4-bet was fos, why would he think the c-bet isn't?
given the described table dynamic, i think the 4-bet was a mistake |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri, 03 Jul 2009, 1:37pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Eats babies
Joined: 28 Feb 2006
Posts: 3884
WPP: 109
|
|
I am either flatting the weak 3bet or making a huge 4bet. Some SPR theory here wouldn't hurt. You have TP type hand, so you either want a low SPR like 4 or a big SPR higher than 13. You seriously can't be 4betting pre and bet/folding flops very often and profit.
Decision to bet flop is not a bet/fold. It's C/F or bet/shove |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri, 03 Jul 2009, 2:53pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Full House
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 813
WPP: 69
Location: in my dad's account making him manies
|
|
| iopq wrote: |
Parasurama: it's not a given that flatting 4bs preflop is exploitable because it depends on our 4b range, if we're a little frisky with 4bing and he has position flatting could very well be +EV (although shoving could be more so) |
Yeah I didn't say it was a given I said (probably). I don't actually know what kmind's 4b range is there. And I didn't say villain flatting our 4b's is exploitable I said it's difficult for him to exploit us c/f'ing missed flops with AK. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri, 03 Jul 2009, 3:18pm Post subject:
|
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 3037
WPP: 73
Location: Not Giving In
|
|
| jyms wrote: | I am either flatting the weak 3bet or making a huge 4bet. Some SPR theory here wouldn't hurt. You have TP type hand, so you either want a low SPR like 4 or a big SPR higher than 13. You seriously can't be 4betting pre and bet/folding flops very often and profit.
Decision to bet flop is not a bet/fold. It's C/F or bet/shove |
Yeah I'm not B/F.
Daven - shouldn't the table dynamic mean I should be 4betting this? He's got to think I'm FOS like you admit to... |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat, 04 Jul 2009, 1:06am Post subject:
|
|
|
Straight Flush
Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 5681
WPP: 126
Location: Ballarat, Australia
|
|
I dont know how to work out the maths, but if we c/f AK when it doesnt hit, and c/f QQ on an A or K flop, and KK on an A flop, then I suspect flatting our 4-bet to exploit that isnt too bad. We probably need to end up checking just about all flops, which gives free cards when we might prefer not to. Hard for us not to just play straightfoward. Obviously if you're going to 4-bet shove for value OOP then you need to 4-bet shove bluff OOP as well, I'm not suggestion you do one thing for value and the other for bluffs.
I dunno, I could be wrong. I just suspect that in a couple months time 4-betting to 2.5x OOP will be fairly rare. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat, 04 Jul 2009, 1:30am Post subject:
|
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 3037
WPP: 73
Location: Not Giving In
|
|
| The only way someone could have that read on me is to witness/play with me a lot. This is all hypothetical as I do not do what you said always. But anyways, seems like a better adjustment to bet more on the flop with our weaker holdings and check our made hands. We can bet because he'll start calling with a wider range preflop allowing for more folds on the flop and we can check because he'll be "auto" cbetting (building a pot) with a horrible range against ours. But of course if someone is flatting a ton of 4bets I'd just 4bet strictly for value. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat, 04 Jul 2009, 2:55am Post subject:
|
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 3556
WPP: 112
Location: at your tables, calling your bets
|
|
| IowaSkinsFan wrote: | | I'd prob flat the 3bet. |
Good, I was hoping I wasn't too big of a nit for suggesting this. I feel like 4-betting to this size is especially bad actually. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat, 04 Jul 2009, 11:58am Post subject:
|
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 3037
WPP: 73
Location: Not Giving In
|
|
| mcatdog wrote: | | IowaSkinsFan wrote: | | I'd prob flat the 3bet. |
Good, I was hoping I wasn't too big of a nit for suggesting this. I feel like 4-betting to this size is especially bad actually. |
So you guys think his 3betting range is much looser than his 4bet calling/5bet shoving ranges? Just trying to figure out why you say to just flat.
Also, why do you think my size is bad? I'm dumb... |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat, 04 Jul 2009, 1:58pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Almost as bad as that idiot redgrape
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 6593
WPP: 74
|
|
| kmind wrote: | | mcatdog wrote: | | IowaSkinsFan wrote: | | I'd prob flat the 3bet. |
Good, I was hoping I wasn't too big of a nit for suggesting this. I feel like 4-betting to this size is especially bad actually. |
So you guys think his 3betting range is much looser than his 4bet calling/5bet shoving ranges? Just trying to figure out why you say to just flat.
Also, why do you think my size is bad? I'm dumb... |
His threebet range is real tight prob, you could make an argument for folding preflop. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat, 04 Jul 2009, 1:59pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Strike 3
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 5869
WPP: 52
|
|
| kmind wrote: | | mcatdog wrote: | | IowaSkinsFan wrote: | | I'd prob flat the 3bet. |
Good, I was hoping I wasn't too big of a nit for suggesting this. I feel like 4-betting to this size is especially bad actually. |
So you guys think his 3betting range is much looser than his 4bet calling/5bet shoving ranges? Just trying to figure out why you say to just flat.
Also, why do you think my size is bad? I'm dumb... | you're OOP, just make it big
like $23 would be standard for IP (although $18 is another option if you plan on owning people post-flop in 4b pots), so make it like $25 OOP |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue, 07 Jul 2009, 1:37pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Strike 3
Joined: 30 Jun 2009
Posts: 17
WPP: 9
|
|
| i dont raisea. I fold this cards |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue, 07 Jul 2009, 3:08pm Post subject:
|
|
|
Straight Flush
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 7005
WPP: 71
Location: Pwnsylvania
|
|
| mcatdog wrote: | | IowaSkinsFan wrote: | | I'd prob flat the 3bet. |
Good, I was hoping I wasn't too big of a nit for suggesting this. I feel like 4-betting to this size is especially bad actually. |
+1mirrion |
|
|
|
|
|
|
FTR $200 Freeroll at Bet365Poker, November 22nd @ 15:00 ET
