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Posted: Sun, 08 Nov 2009, 10:57am Post subject: 50NL: 2 pair, Ultra drawy flop vs semiloosish TAG (+ 2barrel
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 3180
WPP: 95
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1) Villain is a 25/16 with 4% 3bet and 2AF. Since most flush draws are a coinflip to me on the flop, (but wont fold the turn if they miss if they have an A), and since not many worse than coinflip hands will call if I go nuts on the flop, I should wait until the turn to go nuts here right? If its a diamond can I fold and accept that I might sometimes be folding to TP?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
SB ($49.50)
BB ($76.65)
UTG ($111.70)
Hero (MP) ($52.35)
Button ($71.05)
Preflop: Hero is MP with 8 , A
1 fold, Hero bets $2, 2 folds, BB calls $1.50
Flop: ($4.25) A , 7 , 8 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3, BB raises to $9, Hero calls $6
Turn: ($22.25) 3 (some suit)
BB bets $8.50, Hero folds if its a diamond, shoves if it isnt?
2) I didnt really think this deserved its own thread so just tacking it in here. Pretty standard spot. Good for a second barrel vs a normal low stakes TAG? FWIW Im very often just check/folding this flop.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Hero (CO) ($52.30)
Button ($64.40)
SB ($50)
BB ($57)
UTG ($59.60)
MP ($77.10)
Preflop: Hero is CO with 8, K
2 folds, Hero bets $2, Button calls $2, 1 fold, BB calls $1.50
Flop: ($6.25) 9, 3, Q (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $4, 1 fold, BB calls $4
Turn: ($14.25) Q (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $9 |
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Posted: Sun, 08 Nov 2009, 5:30pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 592
WPP: 113
Location: Montreal, Canada
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| maybe i love variance but this is the second thread i see that ppl are hesitant to 4-bet the flop because they are only 'flipping' vs ppl's big draws. Sure if they have 910dd but they also have a bunch of other crap plus worse draws and stuff like AQ/AK that wants to 'protect' on a draw heavy flop so you're just gonna kill your action sometimes by only calling. 3-bet the flop imo, and in this case 3-betting is def better than just calling because you're only 100 bbs deep and calling and folding turns in this spot is bad (whereas the other hand that was 200 bbs deep you're not going to be getting it in as good on the flop as you are here which made it different). |
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Posted: Sun, 08 Nov 2009, 5:59pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 3180
WPP: 95
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| I think AK and often AQ will 3bet pre. Its usually going to be AJ and AT, which probably dont get it in on the flop. I would think AQ is the worst A that will be happy about getting it in on this flop since I could really easily have AK/AQ. |
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Posted: Sun, 08 Nov 2009, 6:38pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 592
WPP: 113
Location: Montreal, Canada
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| You can cooler a7 and 78 as well, two hands that want to get it on the flop to go along with AQ. Bottom line imo is there are way too many reasons to play it fast on the flop vs increasing our equity by getting it in on a 'safe' turn to just call the flop. |
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Posted: Sun, 08 Nov 2009, 6:42pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 592
WPP: 113
Location: Montreal, Canada
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| and in hand 2, this seems a crappy spot to continue in a 3-way pot. I'd c/fold. As played i guess if you're going to bet the turn you should be firing a 3rd barrel on most river cards. |
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Posted: Sun, 08 Nov 2009, 7:42pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 25 May 2008
Posts: 1147
WPP: 64
Location: Manc U.K.
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| I just 3 bet flop in hand 1 and don't barrel hand 2. |
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Posted: Sun, 08 Nov 2009, 8:45pm Post subject:
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2009
Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 1656
WPP: 64
Location: bluffing scare cards
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Hand 1 I support 3 betting and getting it in.
In hand 2 when the board pairs and another draw turns those are 2 good reasons not to barrel. |
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Posted: Sun, 08 Nov 2009, 9:19pm Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 5680
WPP: 126
Location: Ballarat, Australia
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| Ravageur wrote: | | maybe i love variance but this is the second thread i see that ppl are hesitant to 4-bet the flop because they are only 'flipping' vs ppl's big draws. |
Its not that they're only flipping v's draws, its that they're at best flipping v's peoples draws.
Its something Samoleus talks a lot about in his vids, "I'd rather be the person getting it in flipping or crushing, than the person getting it in flipping or crushed".
He's mainly talking about people getting all in with TPGK type hands on drawy flops, a spot like this one depends on how often we think villain has worse 2P or a good TP type hand to determine whether we're always (or mostly) crushed if they have anything other than a draw. |
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Posted: Mon, 09 Nov 2009, 2:05am Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 592
WPP: 113
Location: Montreal, Canada
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ok, but as you suggested this is not an example of what Samoleus says as we are not 'at best' flipping vs his draws in this hand. We are ahead by a lot quite a bit, ahead by a bit a lot and crushed very little of the time.
I guess I just feel like ppl overthink these spots. We have top two on a draw heavy board. It doesn't seem complicated, just get the money in no? I don't think we need to pokerstove his range to know we're goood here more often than we aren't and would rather get it in now then on a diamond turn. If we can't handle the variance we shouldn't be playing at this level to begin with. |
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Posted: Mon, 09 Nov 2009, 4:45am Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 356
WPP: 75
Location: Tampa
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| Isn't the flop in hand 1 the easiest spot ever to get it in? For all reasons given, it gets my vote. |
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Posted: Mon, 09 Nov 2009, 5:36am Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 4170
WPP: 77
Location: Dublin
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lol at thinking your flipping in hand 1, defo get it in on flop.
Hand 2 - really dislike the cb on flop and poor bet sizing on turn. |
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