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Posted: Sat, 30 Dec 2006, 8:35pm Post subject: 3-Betting Strategy
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{NSFW - nipple}
Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 2186
WPP: 107
Location: The Loser's Lounge
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As I begin to dig into 200NL I have come across players that will 3-bet with more than the covetted AA-KK hands. I would just like to hear on the proper methods on dealing with this and how to play back etc. Please pick apart my current strategy or high five me for it or whatever.
Against someone who your basic player and doesn't sway to extremes:
In position 3-bet with TT+, AQo+
In the blinds I 3-bet with the same hands, sometimes a slightly greater range against button players that get a little carried away.
I call 3-bets against me with:
In position (vs blind) TT+, KQs, AQs, AKs
Out of position TT+, AQs, AKs
And here's a hand that came up one time:
I bet AKs, get repopped and I call.
Flop comes all garbage, I check, he checks.
Blank turn, I check, he checks.
River is a K, I check, he pots it, I push, he called and we split with our AK
Question is should I have made a move at a different point in this hand? Should I only pull a flop c/r with a flush draw? Is the river c/r a good idea or was that risking too much or will the villian fold the same hand often enough to make this worthwhile? |
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Posted: Sat, 30 Dec 2006, 9:54pm Post subject:
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Royal Flush
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Posts: 18762
WPP: 81
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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| Smaller openers helps with this problem. As to how often to call, that's a tough one, it really depends on what range you think he's doing it with and how he's going to play the flop. |
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Posted: Sun, 31 Dec 2006, 12:30am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 3253
WPP: 178
Location: at the pool
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| so you're telling me that you never take into account what you think the other guy's range is, how well they play postflop, stack sizes, what your image is/how they perceive you, position (ignoring a trivial difference in your range, but also stuff like is it UTG/MP or is it BN/BB isn't even accounted for), and that you never 4-bet? That can't be right. |
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Posted: Sun, 31 Dec 2006, 12:32am Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 449
WPP: 88
Location: St. Paul or DC
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Posted: Sun, 31 Dec 2006, 3:07am Post subject:
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{NSFW - nipple}
Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 2186
WPP: 107
Location: The Loser's Lounge
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| Lukie wrote: | | so you're telling me that you never take into account what you think the other guy's range is, how well they play postflop, stack sizes, what your image is/how they perceive you, position (ignoring a trivial difference in your range, but also stuff like is it UTG/MP or is it BN/BB isn't even accounted for), and that you never 4-bet? That can't be right. |
Basically I want to make sure none of these are horrendous calls after being 3-bet unless a particular scenario should dictate otherwise. I know it's kind of an environment specific question but I'm looking for any red flags. I do not call 3-bets with these hands until I have some info on the opponent. But these are hands I make calls with once I know someone is the type of player to 3-bet with a wider range than AA-QQ but nothing crazy. Or do you wait until you have very specific info on opponents when you start calling their 3-bets? |
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Posted: Sun, 31 Dec 2006, 2:00pm Post subject:
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Two Pair
Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 49
WPP: 124
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| While you're asking questions like this, i'd love to know how calling 3 bets oop with AQs is profitable for you. I'm not debating it at all, i just wouldn't have a clue how to make this work. |
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Posted: Thu, 04 Jan 2007, 12:12am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 3253
WPP: 178
Location: at the pool
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| Galapogos wrote: | | Lukie wrote: | | so you're telling me that you never take into account what you think the other guy's range is, how well they play postflop, stack sizes, what your image is/how they perceive you, position (ignoring a trivial difference in your range, but also stuff like is it UTG/MP or is it BN/BB isn't even accounted for), and that you never 4-bet? That can't be right. |
Basically I want to make sure none of these are horrendous calls after being 3-bet unless a particular scenario should dictate otherwise. I know it's kind of an environment specific question but I'm looking for any red flags. I do not call 3-bets with these hands until I have some info on the opponent. But these are hands I make calls with once I know someone is the type of player to 3-bet with a wider range than AA-QQ but nothing crazy. Or do you wait until you have very specific info on opponents when you start calling their 3-bets? |
well first, I don't necessarily agree that you have to play super nitty tight against a 3-bet from an unknown. IMO, you have to assume your opponents are at least somewhat competent, and if they are only 3-betting the monster pairs in a shorthanded NL game, then I have a hard time calling them competent. 
substitute 'good' in for competent if you must, the general idea remains the same.
As far as whether or not some of these things are great or terrible, it's really hard to say. In some situations I will call a 3-bet with any 2 that I opened with, while in others, my range might start off very wide and then become absurdly tight when deciding whether or not to call the 3-bet or to just shove/4-bet myself. Honestly you have to look at all factors and even then there should inherently be a degree of randomness in your decisions. As a general guideline, I don't see anything terrible or donkish in your OP if that's what you're looking for, but in NL ring, general guidelines when you're talking in terms of preflop ranges with pretty much no information other then 'you raised, and got reraised' is pretty bad usually. jmho.
A very generic example, which I'm not saying is good or bad or that I'm advocating might look something like this..... say it's a 5/10 game, 1k eff stacks. You open to $40 in the CO with AKo. folds to BB who pops it back to 140, which you estimate he might do with 6% or 8% or 10% of his hands. We will obviously never know the exact amount. If he is playing well, he's obviously going to be adapting to ever changing conditions and there will be a certain amount of randomness in his game as well. Say in this instance, we call 35% of the time, push 35% of the time, and 4-bet to an amount less then a push 30% of the time. While the numbers may not be close to ideal, this makes it much more difficult to play against you then some clown that tells you to push, or call, or fold, or 4-bet less then a push like it's some Absolute decision. |
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Posted: Thu, 04 Jan 2007, 12:25am Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 3253
WPP: 178
Location: at the pool
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| xyu wrote: | | While you're asking questions like this, i'd love to know how calling 3 bets oop with AQs is profitable for you. I'm not debating it at all, i just wouldn't have a clue how to make this work. |
it really depends on what the other guy is reraising with. If you're facing a pot raise and you're out of position with AQs, it might be an auto-fold if someone is 3-betting QQ+/AK, while against others, the option is really between calling and putting in a 3rd raise. There are obviously a lot of other factors besides range, but it's definitely a big one. |
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Posted: Thu, 04 Jan 2007, 11:27am Post subject:
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{NSFW - nipple}
Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 2186
WPP: 107
Location: The Loser's Lounge
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| That helps Lukie, thanks. I've decided to tighten up my calling range much more against unknowns than originally posted because it seems even at 200NL these guys' preflop reraising ranges are still really tight. Typically it is just QQ+, AK. No one really gets out of line with their preflop reraises it seems yet. |
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Posted: Thu, 04 Jan 2007, 2:00pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 1742
WPP: 169
Location: Somewhere fucking up the youth of America
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| Galapogos wrote: | | That helps Lukie, thanks. I've decided to tighten up my calling range much more against unknowns than originally posted because it seems even at 200NL these guys' preflop reraising ranges are still really tight. Typically it is just QQ+, AK. No one really gets out of line with their preflop reraises it seems yet. |
Sounds like *you* should be opening up your preflop reraising ranges quite a bit. If the "whole site only reraises AA/KK/QQ/AK," other players have probably picked up on this. Find players that raise a little too much and pound on them in position, or hell, even out of position. |
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Posted: Thu, 04 Jan 2007, 2:43pm Post subject:
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{NSFW - nipple}
Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 2186
WPP: 107
Location: The Loser's Lounge
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| Ultimate George wrote: | | Galapogos wrote: | | That helps Lukie, thanks. I've decided to tighten up my calling range much more against unknowns than originally posted because it seems even at 200NL these guys' preflop reraising ranges are still really tight. Typically it is just QQ+, AK. No one really gets out of line with their preflop reraises it seems yet. |
Sounds like *you* should be opening up your preflop reraising ranges quite a bit. If the "whole site only reraises AA/KK/QQ/AK," other players have probably picked up on this. Find players that raise a little too much and pound on them in position, or hell, even out of position. |
Oh yeah my reraising range has been pretty wide still. Standard operating procedure so far is repop 3x their bet they will call with whatever they have. And as long as there's no A or K on the flop c-bet half pot. And with an A or K only cbet it with AA,KK,AK.
Sound right? |
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Posted: Thu, 04 Jan 2007, 3:36pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 3659
WPP: 76
Location: over there
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| I like to fold a lot when I get 3bet. |
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Posted: Thu, 04 Jan 2007, 5:32pm Post subject:
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4-of-a-Kind
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 1742
WPP: 169
Location: Somewhere fucking up the youth of America
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| Galapogos wrote: | | Ultimate George wrote: | | Galapogos wrote: | | That helps Lukie, thanks. I've decided to tighten up my calling range much more against unknowns than originally posted because it seems even at 200NL these guys' preflop reraising ranges are still really tight. Typically it is just QQ+, AK. No one really gets out of line with their preflop reraises it seems yet. |
Sounds like *you* should be opening up your preflop reraising ranges quite a bit. If the "whole site only reraises AA/KK/QQ/AK," other players have probably picked up on this. Find players that raise a little too much and pound on them in position, or hell, even out of position. |
Oh yeah my reraising range has been pretty wide still. Standard operating procedure so far is repop 3x their bet they will call with whatever they have. And as long as there's no A or K on the flop c-bet half pot. And with an A or K only cbet it with AA,KK,AK.
Sound right? |
I'd reraise to 3.5x's whatever the original raiser raised. Just looks more powerful, offers crappier odds, less implied odds, etc...
Why aren't you c-betting when an A or K drops? Those are the perfect flops to c-bet against most people's calling ranges of reraises. Yeah, the flop missed you, but it probably missed them too....
MP raises $4 with 88, you raise to $14 with 'xy' on the button.
Flop comes K92 rainbow. He checks to you, you bet $22'ish. He folds.
On the turn you may need to reevaluate if he calls. Maybe check behind, maybe fire another bullet, who knows? Depends on the player you're playing, what you can put him on, timing tells to an extent, etc...Don't just give up b/c there's a high card out there and you didn't hit a pair or better...
Beating this game means scooping a bunch of small pots with something or nothing (it doesn't matter). Ask Fnord about that, I've seen him comment on that from time to time... |
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Posted: Thu, 04 Jan 2007, 5:59pm Post subject:
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{NSFW - nipple}
Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 2186
WPP: 107
Location: The Loser's Lounge
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| All anyone's betting with is AK,AQ,JJ+ (quite a few don't even bet JJ or QQ). If I know someone bets a wider range absolutely I will bet an A or K flop. But from my experience, it's usually AK calling my reraise more than anything else. It's not a very aggressive game on this network. And you're right I shouldn't judge a player soley on the site I'm on. But there are literally maybe a couple players that regularily raise their pocket pairs. |
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