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Posted: Sat, 13 Jun 2009, 7:56am Post subject: 3 bet range for micros 6 max
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High Card
Joined: 03 Jun 2009
Posts: 4
WPP: 165
Location: Wirral, England
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Hi, I've been playing NL10 and NL20 at a new site, I'm opening a lot of hands from LP and just generally playing a TAG game.
One area I need to improve is 3 betting. At the moment I'm pretty much only 3 betting AA/KK/QQ.
At first I was getting a lot of action (my take is most regs at these levels will call and stack off on a low flop with TT/JJ/QQ and only 4 bet KK/AA) but recently the action has dried up as people seem to know I am 3 betting so tightly.
What should my range be, I feel uncomfortable 3 betting AK because I'm missing the flop so often and then leading for a bet just sucks as it gets called so often in these games.
I'm happy flat calling a raise with AK but I'd like to mix it up to get more action for my AA/KK/QQ hands...
Thanks for any help |
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Posted: Sat, 13 Jun 2009, 8:34am Post subject:
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Straight Flush
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 7006
WPP: 71
Location: Pwnsylvania
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| if you're not willing to 3bet AK I'm not sure what to tell ya bud, that would be the easiest hand to "open-up" your 3betting range. |
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Posted: Sat, 13 Jun 2009, 9:01am Post subject:
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One Pair
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 19
WPP: 99
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| I consider myself tight and i will 3 bet AK but i think you need to look at who you are against too. I will 3 bet A10 if i think the guy will fold. |
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Posted: Sat, 13 Jun 2009, 10:50am Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 04 Jun 2008
Posts: 899
WPP: 67
Location: Norman, OK
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Posted: Sat, 13 Jun 2009, 12:41pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 26 Feb 2009
Posts: 813
WPP: 133
Location: Slowrollin' in the $0.10 DONs 'cause that's what all the cool people on TV do
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| thank you for posting that link IllFavor. i've been trying to get 3bet bluffing down and i was pretty much only able to open up to A6s- and JTs basically. i know just blindly following charts is -EV, so i'll try to be super cognizant of the math behind it while i incorporate this into my game |
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Posted: Sat, 13 Jun 2009, 1:50pm Post subject: Re: 3 bet range for micros 6 max
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Straight
Joined: 13 Jul 2008
Posts: 234
WPP: 102
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| TPTK83 wrote: |
What should my range be, I feel uncomfortable 3 betting AK because I'm missing the flop so often and then leading for a bet just sucks as it gets called so often in these games.
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Ok here's what I think. I don't know if what I'm saying is 100% correct so take it with a grain of salt.
Ideally you'd like to be 3-betting the majority of the time when in position so you don't have to "lead into a 3-bet pot" with air. You can easily work AK into your 3-betting range by being a little selective with when you do it. For example, a great time to 3-bet AK is when a 24/20 semi passive player opens from MP and you're on the BU/CO. This way, when he checks the flop to you, you can make a 1/2 to 2/3 pot bet and take it down very often. C-bets in 3-bet pots make you sooo much money at the micros.
Imo one of the biggest factors in 3-betting is position, since ranges change with position. So, next time you play consider position as you're making your 3-bets and just try and think about the situation on your own. For instance, why would you rather 3-bet a player that opens from MP instead of when the same player opens UTG? The answer is because his range from MP is wider than his UTG range and thus he'll be folding to the 3-bet more often in MP than UTG, which makes it more profitable.
If you start thinking like this to yourself while you play then it can only help imo. |
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Posted: Sat, 13 Jun 2009, 2:02pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Posts: 441
WPP: 199
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3b AK because u flip against QQ-99, have blockers against AA n KK (30% eq still) and because AQ-AT are in many players opening ranges as well as 3b caling ranges.
kfaess is right with 3betting position, but AK is too strong to not be 3betting oop. we generally have at 65% equity against many calling ranges and that is more than enough to off set our poor position. |
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Posted: Sat, 13 Jun 2009, 2:32pm Post subject:
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Season VIII
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 2260
WPP: 148
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
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| surviva316 wrote: | | i was pretty much only able to open up to A6s- and JTs basically. |
JTs is likely a gross 3bet. It's usually a fine hand to call an open with, therefore by 3betting you are getting no value, and while you are getting better hands to fold; you are losing all value you have postflop with such a hand. If villain is opening wide, and folding to 3bets often enough to make 3bet bluffing +EV, you would likely want to do so with a hand that is worse than this (one that can't be called profitably), such as J9s, J8s, K5s, etc.
And as Senguin said, it depends who you are up against and their range, and how they will react to 3bets. If villain is opening a wide range (as most are in LP), you should be 3betting light at times. If they are folding often to 3bets, you are likely to 3bet a pretty polarized range, meaning you 3bet the top of your range (QQ+, AK), and also 3bet a fair amount of "trashy" hands. That is hands that you can't profitably 3bet for value, or call with, such as K5s, K9s, J8s, 75s, etc.
If villain is opening a wide range, and calling 3bets with a wide range, then it's likely not as profitable to 3bet 'bluff' as often. However, you do want to open up your 3betting range to include some of your better hands. That is you want to expand your value betting range, and start 3betting hands like TT/JJ, AQ, etc.
But from a basic standpoint to form your 3bet bluffing range, you want to first determine what hands you can and should be 3betting for value. That is what hands are ahead of villains 3bet calling range, or 4betting range (what hands do you want to get all in preflop). That forms your value 3betting range. Then form your calling range. Hands that it is profitable to call villain's open raise with. Hands like small pps, suited connectors, some broadways, etc will likely form this range, but it does depend on villains opening range. Then choose the best hands you can't 3bet for value, and you can't call with, to 3bet as a bluff. This will usually be suited gappers, Axs, broadways, etc. |
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Posted: Sat, 13 Jun 2009, 2:42pm Post subject:
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Strike 3
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 5869
WPP: 52
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ok so you say your problem is they call a lot of 3bs and they're not folding the flop
so basically they call with tons of trash on the flop, right?
bet the turn too and they're either playing 22 for stacks unimproved or they're folding
so figure out the people who will felt really light and don't cbet/barrel them just valuetown them after you do flop a king or an ace
and the people who call the flop and fold turn without a hand |
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Posted: Sat, 13 Jun 2009, 5:07pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 26 Feb 2009
Posts: 813
WPP: 133
Location: Slowrollin' in the $0.10 DONs 'cause that's what all the cool people on TV do
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| XxStacksxX wrote: | | surviva316 wrote: | | i was pretty much only able to open up to A6s- and JTs basically. |
JTs is likely a gross 3bet. It's usually a fine hand to call an open with, therefore by 3betting you are getting no value, and while you are getting better hands to fold; you are losing all value you have postflop with such a hand. |
what if we're OOP? call still the right play? i know it's opponent dependent, but just wondering what your thoughts are.
in fact how does 3balllin range change in general when we're OOP. namely in blind steal situations. we should definitely be 3betting wide because they're bet/fold range is ginormo (especially at micros where even the regs hate being 3bet). on the other hand though a lot of our 3bet bluffing range doesn't play nearly as well, namely the suited hands that don't have aces in them |
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Posted: Sat, 13 Jun 2009, 5:12pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 26 Feb 2009
Posts: 813
WPP: 133
Location: Slowrollin' in the $0.10 DONs 'cause that's what all the cool people on TV do
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| ps, there should totally be a sticky for 3betting because it's a huge part of preflop play and the advice given in the shorthanded nl sticky blows (3bet whenever you are ahead of 50% of PFR's range? that's crap) |
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Posted: Sat, 13 Jun 2009, 5:29pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 862
WPP: 152
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
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Okay... so I'm stuck on something...
Here are my assumptions:
6max, a MP vil who opens 10% so I'll put his range at 77+, AJo+,KQo+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+. He continues to a LP 3bet w/ TT+,AQs+,AKo,QJs,JTs... assumes no 4-bet for simplicity's sake.
So opening range is 142 combos (8prs x 6, 10 suited x 4 and 4 off-suit x 12) and continues with 58 combos (5prs x6, 4 suited x 4 and 1 offsuit x 12).
That means he folds to a 3bet 59% of the time.
Using Muzz' pot assumptions of open for 4, 3b to 12 and folded back around, I need him to fold 68.5% of the time to make the 3bet profitable.
Now I'm gonna flop goot with my 3b value range a certain % of the time which contributes part of the EV. But obv 59%<68.5%.
Which leads me to my point of stuck... WTF does that mean to my 3bet range vs. this villain? My first instinct is tighten up my 3b range, sig minizing the bluff portion. But for some reason this doesn't sound right to me.
Where'd I f-ck up?  |
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Posted: Sat, 13 Jun 2009, 5:46pm Post subject:
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Season VIII
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 2260
WPP: 148
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
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Sarbox: Using those assumptions, it simply shows that 3bet bluffing this villain will not be immediately +EV. We don't expect him to fold often enough to our PF 3bet bluff. However, those numbers are also assuming we have no postflop equity. It simply shows that if he folds >68.5% of the time, then a preflop 3bet bluff is immediately +EV due to fold equity alone. However, as we know, no matter what we will have some postflop equity. Add to that the fact that we will have position on the villain postflop, where we can get more money in when ahead, and lose less when behind, and it's still a likely profitable spot to 3bet bluff.
As far as the correct 3bet range, I'm not 100% sure. QQ has >50% equity against his calling range, while AK does not. I'd probably still polarize my range, as it usually is, and 3bet my nuts range, likely {QQ+, AK}, and then 3bet bluff hands like {86s, J7s, Axs, etc}. |
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Posted: Sat, 13 Jun 2009, 6:05pm Post subject:
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One Pair
Joined: 28 Apr 2009
Posts: 17
WPP: 135
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| XxStacksxX wrote: | | I'd probably still polarize my range, as it usually is, and 3bet my nuts range, likely {QQ+, AK}, and then 3bet bluff hands like {86s, J7s, Axs, etc}. |
How important is it for us to polarize our range at the micros? |
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Posted: Sat, 13 Jun 2009, 6:15pm Post subject:
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Season VIII
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 2260
WPP: 148
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
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| NoPantsPoker wrote: | | XxStacksxX wrote: | | I'd probably still polarize my range, as it usually is, and 3bet my nuts range, likely {QQ+, AK}, and then 3bet bluff hands like {86s, J7s, Axs, etc}. |
How important is it for us to polarize our range at the micros? |
I'm not the greatest player to discuss 3betting with. But generally when I'm in position my 3betting range is relatively polarized. I 3bet my strongest hands for value, I call the hands that are profitable to call with, then 3bet the next best hands (that I can't call with) as a bluff. That is unless I realize that I can 3bet a wider value range because villain is calling so many 3bets OOP. In which case I will shrink my 3bet bluff range (because he's calling so often, it's not going to be as profitable. Unless I'm intent on barreling, which is a different discussion), and I will widen my 3bet value range. Making my 3betting range a bit less polarized.
When OOP, I'm more likely to 3bet a bit more a balanced range. I'm likely mix in 3betting hands like KJs, QTs, 87s, etc that I likely wouldn't 3bet IP all that often. Reason being, and I'm honestly not sure if I'm even thinking about this right, is because villain should likely have a wider calling range when say he opens the BU, and I 3bet SB. And it's because of this I would like more playable hands in my range so that I play profitably postflop. Instead of 3betting K3s and check/folding 95% of flops, and even when I hit not being able to get much money in ahead. |
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Posted: Sat, 13 Jun 2009, 6:17pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 862
WPP: 152
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
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| Is there any value to 3betting smaller (esp. vs someone who rarely 4bets) which would bump the B/E point lower? Taking 4 to 8 instead of 12, for example, would take us to exactly the 59% we need. |
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Posted: Sat, 13 Jun 2009, 6:29pm Post subject:
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Season VIII
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 2260
WPP: 148
Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
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There is likely some merit to 3bettin smaller. As it will widen his OOP calling range, in which case we will have more profitable valuebetting and bluffing spots postflop, as he will have a wide range OOP in a non-bloated pot. However, it's not going to be ideal when you have a value hand as you will be giving him decent pot odds, and implied odds to call with all his pps, suited connectors, etc, as well as the other opponents left to act.
I'd say the wider your 3betting range the smaller you can make it. As you will obviously have a higher frequency of bluffs when you 3bet really wide. Which while villains will likely be profitable to 4bet a wider range, and call a wider range, it will be less profitable for them to do so (yet still +EV) if your size is small rather than large.
Like it would be bad to 3bet 15% and do so to 20bb. Villains will have an easy decision with 88-JJ, AQ, AJ, etc hands. However, if you 3bet 15% but make it 4x -> 10x or something, they are still going to have some iffy spots on whether to 4bet you with their 88-TT and stack off or call and play the pot OOP (which you can then bluff them off of, valuetown them, etc).
PS - This is just the ramblings of a semi-3bet retarded FR, turned 6m, nit. |
Last edited by XxStacksxX on Sat, 13 Jun 2009, 6:42pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Sat, 13 Jun 2009, 6:32pm Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 26 Sep 2006
Posts: 862
WPP: 152
Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from
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| XxStacksxX wrote: | | PS - This is just he ramblings of a semi-3bet retarded FR, turned 6m, nit. |
Dude... I write posts about insults and chips & dip... your sh!t's straight golden compared to that! |
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Posted: Sat, 13 Jun 2009, 10:59pm Post subject:
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Strike 3
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 5869
WPP: 52
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| sarbox68 wrote: | | Is there any value to 3betting smaller (esp. vs someone who rarely 4bets) which would bump the B/E point lower? Taking 4 to 8 instead of 12, for example, would take us to exactly the 59% we need. | yeah, actually it's really tilting when someone 3bs like 2.5x IP because when you have crap you don't want to call OOP and get owned, but you don't want to fold because it's such a small raise |
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Posted: Fri, 19 Jun 2009, 7:58am Post subject:
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High Card
Joined: 03 Jun 2009
Posts: 4
WPP: 165
Location: Wirral, England
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Thanks for the replies everyone. 
Past few days I've tried opening up and it hasn't gone well at all.
I've 3 bet JJ/TT a few times with position, flop has come low, and i've been check raised all in by QQ twice and by AKs once with a flush draw on board. Am I supposed to be stacking off with TT/JJ if the flop comes 984 rainbow and my cbet gets check raised all in?
Regards AK, when I have 3 bet AA/KK in the past and got action, very often you'll see players check call down with TT/JJ on low flops. With the AA/KK being hidden you get action but with AK, I'm going to get action with low flops but I've only got ace high whilst when they call the 3 bet with JJ/TT and I flop TPTK, I'm never going to get action there, unless the player is supremely loose.
I've come to a balance of just 3 betting a bit lighter- 99+, AQ/AK vs loose aggressive players, so if they are opening a large % of hands (20%+) then I'm happy playing against them. Definetely an area I need to improve on.
Thanks for all the replies, I have to say this is a very helpful forum. |
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Posted: Fri, 19 Jun 2009, 8:20am Post subject:
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Full House
Joined: 26 Feb 2009
Posts: 813
WPP: 133
Location: Slowrollin' in the $0.10 DONs 'cause that's what all the cool people on TV do
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| you shouldn't be opening up your 3betting for value range all that much at lower limits. this thread is mostly about founding opportune times to 3bet as a bluff |
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Posted: Fri, 19 Jun 2009, 3:25pm Post subject:
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Flush
Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Posts: 441
WPP: 199
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| TPTK83 wrote: |
I've 3 bet JJ/TT a few times with position. |
um, WHY? |
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